Geoff Ellis exclusive eFestivals interview

Last night Channel 4's Dispatches exposed major secondary market ticket sellers as 'scalpers' who sell tickets not just from "fan to fan" but from promoters who hugely inflate prices.

eFestivals has always been against touting in all forms, and we are about the only major music & festivals website that has always rebuffed the approaches from these shiny-suited scumbag touts and never partnered with them.

Dispatches sent reporters undercover inside two major 'fan-to-fan' ticket exchange websites to investigate who is selling via their websites and why so many tickets appear at over the face value so soon after the box office sells out and revealed operating practices that were damning.

On Wednesday, one of the major secondary ticketing scumbag tout websites - Viagogo - attempted to get an injunction to stop the programme being broadcast. The court declined to grant the injunction and the programme was broadcast on Channel 4 last night, and will available to watch again soon on 4OD (here).

Channel 4's Dispatches revealed that thousands of tickets for tours by big-name artists such as Coldplay and Westlife, and V Festival tickets, had allegedly been supplied to Viagogo by their promoters, which include Live Nation, MCD, and SJM Concerts.

eFestivals spoke to T in the Park organiser Geoff Ellis yesterday, for a full interview to appear online next week. We asked him about the secondary market before the airing of last night's programme.

He told us, "From what I know about it, this Dispatches programme has come a couple of years too late. They should have brought this programme out before. The whole thing about the secondary ticketing is that it's never been illegal.

"I was one of the most vociferous anti-touting campaigners and tried to get the government to introduce legislation. Loads of us, Tessa Jowell, and the BCMS. We thought we had convinced them to bring in legislation, then at the last minute the previous government decided not to legislate, and to let a free market economy rule.

"Then, because of the public outcry we managed to get it in front of a Select Committee. I sat in front of that, which was something I didn't expect to be doing, I thought you only did that if you tapped people's phones, stuff like that.

"We put forward a very robust case for legislation, and again it was felt by the government of the day and parliament that ticket touting shouldn't be illegal. So, that said to the secondary market not only is was you're doing not illegal but it's effectively endorsed by the government".

Reselling tickets is not illegal in the UK and a government review in 2010 concluded that the market did not need further regulation. For the latest on Sharon Hodgson's Sale of Tickets (Sporting and Cultural Events) Bill click here.

Whilst the practises the programme exposed may not be illegal they are certainly immoral. The large falsely-claimed 'fan to fan' businesses were shown not only selling tickets they had received direct from promoters when these tickets have never been sold in the primary ticket market (thus reducing availability of tickets at face-value), but also ticket scalping where they falsely inflate demand via their own in-house purchases to resell for vastly more than the face-value ticket price.

Geoff continued, "We said at the time, if you don't legislate then the music industry will go into the secondary market. Not because it wants to, but because it has got no choice. That's not to say it'll be embraced, but people will do it because if you've got an artist that you're working with and their fans are buying tickets off a secondary market. If those don't come the primary source, ie the promoter then the artist doesn't get any of that money, and it all goes to a ticket tout, and also none of the VAT gets paid on it, and none of the PRS gets paid on it, and none of the money goes back into the industry, and is circulated in the industry."

"The secondary market runs on the really big shows that sell out very quickly. I think some people come across Viagogo, Seatwave, and GetMeIn, they're the three main operators. They use them because maybe don't want to can't get onto the official sellers at 9 o'clock, because they're at work or whatever, then think I'll pay a little over the odds, get my ticket, and I'm happy, and that's what the public do."

"I think as an industry we knew, that artists promoters would start to do that to capture the money for the music industry rather than it going out to touts.

Dispatches revealed that the promoters who allegedly connive with the secondary sellers receive back 90% of the profits that these sales generate, while it's unlikely that acts like Coldplay see any of this money.

Since last night's programme, eFestivals has heard from an agent of many acts booked for this summer's festivals who said it was about time this underhand practice by promoters was publicly revealed. While the Concert Promoters Association gave Dispatches supportive comments for how some of their members have been operating, these actions are actually against their own published Code Of Conduct which says their members should operate with honesty and integrity towards the public.

eFestivals has been unconvinced for the last few years that demand has been as high as promoters and primary ticket agents would have you believe that events and festivals have sold out, and forum posters have often revealed that 1,000s of tickets have flooded the secondary market within minutes of going on sale.

There's also another different problem involved with 'resold' tickets, the secondary ticketing market also allows for people to be ripped off. Geoff agrees, "I think the bigger problem facing fans is the plethora of tickets that don't actually exist, that people sell on the secondary market. A lot of people sell tickets on the secondary market that are forgeries, not even forgeries they're virtual forgeries."

"People turn up to get their ticket and are told to collect them at the box office and the tickets don't appear, and people left outside wherever it is without their tickets. Not only have they paid over face value, but they don't even have a ticket for that privilege.

"Then people get very pissed off and understandably. If legislation was brought in then these fraudsters wouldn't be able to operate."

However, in a line we suspect may be used as the future defence by many of the promoters in the firing line, he conceded, "I guess that with the industry having artists, managers, promoters putting tickets into the secondary market then at least those tickets are going to be genuine."

"Also, by doing it, they should be bringing the prices down. Because the more genuine tickets there are on the secondary, the more the prices should come down anyway, that's market forces."

He's correct if it were market forces that were determining the price, instead as exposed by last night's programme the scumbags selling the tickets are out to line their own pockets through their commission on sales and falsely hiking prices and creating a false demand for tickets.

Geoff also believes as a whole his position of standing against the secondary market isn't one shared by all of the industry. "I can't speak for everyone in the industry when I say I think the industry would prefer it if there was legislation in place."

eFestivals wanted to know if it would be possible now for legislation to ever come into place, or in the words of one boss of a major touting site, "is there more chance of me playing in goal for Chelsea?"

The T in the Park boss didn't think so, and added, "No, I don't think it's possible, if we couldn't get it with a Labour government we're certainly not going to get it with a Tory government. I know the SNP in Scotland were supportive of our campaign against ticket touts. So, maybe if we get independence Scotland will lead the way. But, that's still a few years away, that debate.."

"The real point is the secondary market is here to stay if you're not going to bring in legislation. The only way you can stop the touts operating is for the primary market to go into the secondary market.."

"What I think will happen, if we can get everyone to sing from the same hymn sheet, is a more of a dynamic pricing model with hot tickets. Where so many tickets are put on at a certain price and then the rest are put on a sliding scale. Like the way the travel industry works. If book a flight with Easyjet or Ryan Air if you book it six months in advance you pay a lot less than if you book it six hours in advance."

"I think that's probably the way ticketing will go, it's not the way any of us want it. But, I think that's a fairer system you can have, rather than the current thing where touts and fraudsters can just put tickets on the secondary market and rip people off."

The first signs of this appeared a few weeks ago when Madonna became one of the first acts in the UK to make a secondary ticket seller (Viagogo) her primary ticket agent, and those trying to for tickets will have noticed that prices were inflated for tickets from almost the moment they went on sale. This is perhaps what we'll see in the future, with it becoming almost impossible to buy a face value ticket. We certainly can't trust these scum bags at secondary ticket sites, if their wages are linked to how much they can inflate the price of tickets.

Geoff seemed dismissive that anything would come out of the programme, and said, "I haven't seen the programme yet, but if an artist or promoter has put tickets on the secondary market now. then, so what? That's what we said would happen, don't blame the artist or the promoter, blame the government for not legislating.."

"And, if they didn't put tickets on the market then the money goes to fraudsters and doesn't stay in the industry, doesn't go to the artists, and doesn't go to developing new talent, and also doesn't go towards VAT either. People aren't fans of 20% VAT but if you pay your money for a ticket, you'd rather your money went to something like the NHS, then going in the back pocket of some tout."

"There's always T in the Park tickets on the secondary market. But we do monitor the prices, and we've not seen massive prices on the secondary market. That's maybe because we've got a small population of 5 million people and we're selling 85,000. Maybe there's not thousands of people all looking for one ticket. But, what we do see every year is people being ripped off by buying tickets on internet auction sites and the tickets not existing."

eFestivals has always been against touting on all forms. Unlike most other festival and music websites we have always refused to deal with them, and have rebuffed all of the numerous approaches we have had from these companies. We always state in our replies to them that just because a scumbag tout puts on a shiny suit to give the impression of respectability they are still a scumbag tout.

If the actions of these companies offended you, complain to them as well as to your favourite bands who may have been the victims of these underhand practices.

Earlier today eFestivals also spoke to the Chairman of the Concert Promoters Association (CPA). His general view was that none of this touting is happening without the full agreement with everyone in the chain - bands, managers, promoters.

Whilst he accepted eFestivals' general point that how they have been operating is a breech of the CPA's code of conduct (here) for items 1, 3, 4, 5, & 9 he replied that the CPA cannot control how their members operate. He did say that this would be raised at the CPA's next meeting, but that the CPA would not take action against members.

He believes that we live in a free market and touting is that free market in operation. eFestivals contested that whilst that might be the case, if they have nothing to be ashamed of they should be open and honest about supplying the secondary market with tickets.

We suggest that everyone should tweet @Coldplay - who appear to be the victims of touting by their own promoter - as we feel that the normally-ethical Chris Martin might be the man who can put some pressure behind stopping ticket touting. If Chris &/or Coldplay remain silent on this issue we're sure you'll be able to make up your own mind about how they feel.

After Coldplay's fans encountered ticket disappointment they started a new HM Government e-petition entitled 'Stop Ticket Touts Profiteering'. It describes the situation as: "Tickets for concerts and sporting events are bought and immediately sold for massive profit. This means the ordinary fan has to pay not only a "booking fee" and a "postage charge" but a huge uplift from profiteers with no interest in the event. Ticketmaster, not content with fleecing people for postage costs on e-tickets (!?!) have set up "getmein.com" which gains a second booking fee from the profiteers! This was outlawed in the 80's with football tickets and this legislation must be widened to cover these chancers."

To sign the petition, click here.

Do not buy tickets from touts under any circumstances!

...and beware of websites that have made no comment about this story, they are likely to be colluding with the touts to fleece you. To sell spare tickets away from these scumbag touts we recommend that you use the face-value resale website Scarlet Mist.

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