Debt Collection with Menace

[worm]

Yeah but there is way and means of controlling risk...

For example... IF someone wants a £10k website... There is no way I build the bloody thing, give it to them and then invoice them... I would agree milestones and invoice at those milestones before continuing work. Limiting my exposure to doing a shit load of work, incurring loads of costs and getting screwed.

[worm]

That's life; shit happens.

[eFestivals]

How can I put this: We're all on credit. Yourself included.

You have the fortune of having a steady income based upon factors you have zero control over. The same can be said of t8yman. The difference is that the steady income which he has no control over has f**ked up. This has led him to take the risk, whereas you obviously don't have to. If the plug is pulled on your business, then you can no longer pay Scottie whether you want to or not.

You're completely and utterly wrong. But as ever, you'll invent something from your head, and insist till the cows come home that you're right when in truth you don't have the first f**king idea.

I have a non-steady income. That means I have to plan ahead for every possible eventuality. That is the ONLY way that things can be properly managed.

If I'm not able to manage a risk, I don't take that risk. What I definitely don't do is take on an even bigger risk in the hope of that giving me salvation.

The one thing you've got right is saying "If the plug is pulled on your business, then you can no longer pay Scottie whether you want to or not" - but that's something which was made clear to him at the start of his employment, along with me telling him the various contingency plans I have in place for smaller downturns which gives him greater security of employment than he might otherwise have.

[eFestivals]

No it isn't. It's judgemental, patronising bullshit. He wants advice on a resolution, not some retrospective crap on how to run his business.

Is anyone telling him ways of 'resolution' which he doesn't already know? Nope. That's because there are none.

But even if he goes the thug route, even that doesn't necessarily get him a satisfactory resolution - after all, you can't get blood out of a stone. And much like him giving credit in the first place, it's an action that has a range of consequences - and not all of them are good.

If you take risks to make profits, then don't complain if those risks come back and bite you. Anyone who is in business and not following this golden rule shouldn't be in business in the first place.

And just a final point .... while he might favour the 'thug' route, how does he know that the non-payer doesn't know bigger thugs than he does? Taking on ever-greater risks to try to cover for a risk-gone-wrong has a greater risk back on him than the risks he's taken before.

[eFestivals]

Yes, but you don't know any of this. You haven't been given an analysis of his business's internal or external environment or the risk factors involved or the current stage of his businesses life cycle. You're just assuming it and ticking him off for having to take desperate measures because it's a faux-pas as far as you're concerned.

In other words, you're both being a pair of pricks.

right, so we're pricks for pointing out that desperate measures carry risks, while you state he's taken desperate measures but make no mention of the risks.

[worm]

If you take risks to make profits

Edited April 20, 2011 by worm

[worm]

right, so we're pricks for pointing out that desperate measures carry risks, while you state he's taken desperate measures but make no mention of the risks.

Edited April 20, 2011 by worm

[eFestivals]

Everyone does this. Absolutely every single business on earth does this. Every worker does it when they go to work - they may not get paid. Every purchaser does it when they buy a product - it may not work. Every producer does it when they make something for an agreed price - they may not receive their invoice pay.

So what the f**k is your point other than to say, ''tough shit, that's business''?

Yes, everyone takes risks - but some risks are greater than others, and made for the greater rewards that can come from them.

A businessman takes a greater risk than an employee does, but the trade off with taking that greater risk is the possibility of greater profits. Anyone who takes the risk for the profits but also doesn't factor in the real consequences of having taken that risk has been foolish.

If ty8man is saying that these consequences will take his business under, then he's not properly factored in the possible consequences of those risks. That makes the consequences back on him at least partly his own doing; it was his choice to take that risk - a risk he took and hoped to profit from, no one forced him to.

[eFestivals]

No, you're being pricks for saying he deserves what he gets for being in business.

I've not anywhere said "he deserves what he gets for being in business", or remotely implied that.

Hey wing-nut, why not make something up out of nothing? Oh, too late, you already have. Yet again.

Would you say the same thing to a worker who'd not been paid?

Nope - but a worker is (supposedly) taking less risk, and because they take less risk they take less profit too.

If a risk bites back, any boss should take it in the same way as he took the profits in the good times.

[llcoolphil]

I've given my advice (and not 'condemnation' ) already - tho it's too late to help him out of the situation he's allowed himself to get into.

[worm]

Yes, everyone takes risks - but some risks are greater than others, and made for the greater rewards that can come from them.

A businessman takes a greater risk than an employee does, but the trade off with taking that greater risk is the possibility of greater profits. Anyone who takes the risk for the profits but also doesn't factor in the real consequences of having taken that risk has been foolish.

If ty8man is saying that these consequences will take his business under, then he's not properly factored in the possible consequences of those risks. That makes the consequences back on him at least partly his own doing; it was his choice to take that risk - a risk he took and hoped to profit from, no one forced him to.

[eFestivals]

So you've given him advice that by your own admission is f**kin useless.

which is no better or worse than anyone else's. It's not like anyone here has raised anything he's not thought of himself already.

But at least my advice might save him getting himself into the same situation again. Which is somewhat better than some other views posted here, which only concentrate on the errors of the non-payer and don't mention the error he made in allowing a customer credit that he couldn't afford to give (and where one has called me a prick for pointing out that this side of things was very much within his own control ).

[worm]

I've not anywhere said "he deserves what he gets for being in business", or remotely implied that.

[eFestivals]

He's a f**king fruit seller. Get a grip!

so does that make him a businessman, or not?

When he made decent profits, here's betting - like most businessmen - he believed them the result of his doings. But when things go wrong, they're always always someone else's fault. Yeah, right.

The two things come in the same package.

[worm]

which only concentrate on the errors of the non-payer and don't mention the error he made in allowing a customer credit that he couldn't afford to give

[eFestivals]

You've condemned him to the consequences of taking a risk. That's exactly what you've implied.

No, I've said (based on what has been posted here, I have nothing else to go on) he's taken a risk that he clearly couldn't afford to take. So the sensible brain says he shouldn't have taken that risk.

I know that's not much good to him in hindsight, but it doesn't make it any less true.

You prefer to make stuff up than actually read what people have said. I wouldn't expect it any different from you, wing-nut.

[worm]

so does that make him a businessman, or not?

[worm]

No, I've said he's taken a risk that he clearly couldn't afford to take.

[eFestivals]

That every business on earth does!

No they don't. Good job you're not in any worthwhile business.

The sensible businessman doesn't give credit beyond what they can afford to cover themselves - otherwise you're simply waiting for bankruptcy to happen, because sooner or later a big risk like that won't deliver as hoped.

Every business depends on investing in something and hoping that there's a return.

there's a big difference between hoping for a return and risking the shirt off your back on getting that return.

It's that fact that has passed you by entirely.

t8tyman was plunged into having to take a high risk, and because he's only a small business the risks are his livlihood, you unsympathetic twat!

However much sympathy I may or may not have - which you'll never know (apart from what you wrongly fantasise ) - none of it can change the fact that he's taken too big a risk. If you risk it all, then you risk losing it all.

If things were so desperate for him that he felt he had to take a risk he couldn't afford to cover, that's his choice alone. He had other choices which he preferred less, but here's betting that right now he's wishing he'd have taken one of those alternatives - which ultimately gets to mean that he's recognised his own error no less than I have but you haven't.

[eFestivals]

And as has been pointed out to you, every business in the world takes a risk that they can't afford to take should it fail.

The difference is that the small man is pressurised, while corporations have expert risk analysts etc.

There's no difference at all. The smaller risk that the small businessman takes is far easier to quantify, and so doesn't need expert risk analysis.

If you bet your house then you should be aware that you can lose your house. If you bet your house all the time, then you WILL lose your house sooner or later.

[llcoolphil]

a bit of both. But I'm also a person who he can trust 100%, not some random who's wondered in off the street.

[worm]

No they don't.

Edited April 20, 2011 by worm

[eFestivals]

Well he couldn't trust you enough to run the business in a way that wouldn't involve him taking the pay cut you've already told us about.

None of us are recession proof - what matters in the end is how such things are managed. And while I've not asked Scott how he feels about things, it's very probably the case that he feels I've managed things well in his direction (nothing about the business is hidden from him, so he knows exactly how things stand at all times). And his pay has increased since then.

It's not like businesses of all sizes haven't had to do similar in the last few years, and the public sector is now lining up the same thing (on top of their pay freeze too, the bastards ).

How many separate businesses do you supply to on a daily basis and how much of what you supply is f*cked if you dont supply it? I dont mean put on hold, I mean if you dont supply that day, you cant wait and supply it next week?

obviously I run a different sort of business to his, but the same factor still applies; if you give more credit than you can afford to cover if it's not paid, then sooner or later you'll be bankrupt, because sooner or later debts owed to you won't be paid.

The profit margin is an irrelevant detail. Even if he operated as a not for profit organisation, he would still have to advance a line of credit to the businesses he supplies, his stock would still have the extremely limited shelf life it has, the people who supply into him would still need paying (and bear in mind these are very small enterprises that would find it virtually impossible to supply direct without him or someone similar to him)and the staff he employs would still need paying.

Yep. But what's not an irrelevant detail is that giving credit beyond your means will bring your business down sooner or later. No matter what anyone might say, that's a fact that always holds true.

I don't think myself immune from being hit in a similar way as he has, but the risks of it happening and how hard it hits can be managed to reduce those risks. If you take bigger risks, then you risk taking a bigger hit - that's simply how things are.

[eFestivals]

had T8yman not given credit as a last resourt, he'd have f**k all for it anyway wouldn't he. So it isn't the credit that's the problem, it's the lack of economic stability in the external environment. The only one benefitting here is the shark that's taken advantage of his desperate predicament. A predicament brought about by the environment, not the credit.

The reason you're an unsympathetic twat is because his business is seemingly going down the pan as evidenced by the symptom of having to give out such risky credit - the beginning of the end. You're too busy chastising him for giving out such grave credit, while completely ignoring what drove him to it and the lack of options at hand.

So what you're saying ultimately is that his business was f**ked anyway, and he made one last desperate roll of the dice hoping to save it. So ultimately, he's lost nothing above what he would have lost anyway.

There's no guarantee in business or in life. A person forgets that at their peril.

Edited April 20, 2011 by eFestivals

[t8yman]

Ive avoided this thread because my blood was f**king boiling this morning at monsieur oafs oh so sympathetic advice, however I feel I must now chip back in.

we deliver fruit and veg to caterers 7 days a week, we offer a great service, and competitive prices for quality goods. a good deal of customers do pay cash either daily or weekly, but some require monthly accounts or you dont get the business, fullstop, some even stipulate 90 days. the market is tough, as we all know, and decembers weather completely f**ked a great deal of restaurants and hotels due to lost xmas party bookings, many fooderies rely on a bumper december to see them through the quiet post xmas months until mothers day arrives and with it the warmer weather and the general feeling of uplift.

the thing that has pissed me off the most so far however is Neils comment that I took the risk whilst my eyes were glazed over with the thoughts of profit. I dont earn very much out of this company, and we have made 50% of our staff redundant over the past 18 months, we are very much on skeleton crew, the staff we have left have been here since almost day one, we dont have a high turnover of staff, and I have remained loyal to the people who have been loyal to me, I am a fair employer, and I pay a fair wage, I also operate in a very flexible manner wherever I can with regard to lending people vans for personal stuff, taking days off at short notice, staff loans, and many other things. I also operate on a trust basis with most of my customers and suppliers, every single one of which I know well, and am on first name terms with.

This guy took over said hotel a while ago, we already had a balance with the account when he bought it, but he continued to pay the bills on time, and we all got along very well, however - we cannnot simply put someone "on stop" because the cheque is a day late, otherwise we will lose the account. its the service industry ffs, we work on short lead times, and if we do put them on stop, they will go to another supplier, pay them properly, and we will have to go the legal route to collect outstanding monies, because the ex customer thinks "f**k him, he let me down when I needed him".

for the last 5 years, the business has operated at basically a very small profit, after all wages and salaries, theres very very little left, and a f**ked up van or a broken machine can wipe that out very easily, let alone 4 or 5 customers going pop and owing you a few grand each.

This will not finish our business (unless some f**ker else goes bust soon and the bank decide otherwise), it will just mean that my suppliers will all get paid a few weeks later than they would like, until we can turn the cashflow around, and hopefully pick up more business to replace it, but I really would like to say a big "f**k you very much" to the people that are saying "business is business", because when you see a guy go pop owing you £3k set up the very next day, doing the very same thing, and paying your competitors cash, it tends to stick in your throat a bit.

we aren't designing websites, we are delivering veg, and all we ask is that we get paid for it, because someone has had to order it, collect it, check it, book it, pick it, peel it, pack it, and deliver it to your door.

People are very quick to get very socialist on here, and "knock the boss man", I was obviously misguided when I expected a bit of understanding from some of the people on this board I have been an active member of for 8 years (i think).

At the moment, I'm not going to go ahead with the route I originally asked for guidance on, but you can rest assured, if the day ever comes where the bank DO call it all in, "Mr Knuckles" might well be my first port of call.