In the spirit of good will and human rights.....

[Mark E. Spliff]

you all make it sound so easy- just go after the perpetrators...surely that's what they did- but wasn't finding them a little tricky considering the terrain, and the support network enjoyed by al-quaeda in afghanistan, pakistan, iraq etc?

[Tugger2k]

A radical step perhaps but the legalisation/decriminalisation of drugs (irrelevantly would solve many of the worlds problems, along with cause a few (though i believe these could be ironed out)) in relation to Afghanistan, the legal growth of opium poppies would undermine and wither Al quaeda from the inside, as a huge percentage of their funding is based in the drug trade as much of the black market is. In turn we would have had a far smaller invasion if any and thousands less innocent mortalities, and a crop which they can live on therefore not look elsewhere and towards extremism

I'm probably missing a crucial flaw somewhere but thats my 2 cents

[fur_q]

you all make it sound so easy- just go after the perpetrators...surely that's what they did- but wasn't finding them a little tricky considering the terrain, and the support network enjoyed by al-quaeda in afghanistan, pakistan,<b> iraq <b>etc?

[titch juicy]

No. "They" (i.e. George Bush and his Neo-Conservative masters) didn't go after the perpetrators. In fact, they expressly avoided going after the perpetrators. In the days after September 11th, the Taleban (who had nothing to do with the attacks) were making desperate attempts to do a deal with Bush to hand over Bin Laden. Bush shut the door in their face.

The reason? Because throughout the past decade, the Taleban had been making life difficult for the US by refusing to allow a gas pipeline through Afghanistan to transport gas from the Caspian Sea. This was an enormous strategic and economic problem for the US. This is why the Neo Cons had publically stated their support for military action in Afghanistan long before 911 happened.

When 911 happened, the Neo Cons used this as their excuse. They also used it as their excuse to make sure Iraqi oil started flowing to the West. No sane person could make a link between 911 and Sadam Hussein.

If you want to find out the real background to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the laughable 'war on terror', take a look at the following excellent 3 part BBC documentary:

The Power of Nightmares Part One

The Power of Nightmares Part Two

The Power of Nightmares Part Three

[Tugger2k]

No. "They" (i.e. George Bush and his Neo-Conservative masters) didn't go after the perpetrators. In fact, they expressly avoided going after the perpetrators. In the days after September 11th, the Taleban (who had nothing to do with the attacks) were making desperate attempts to do a deal with Bush to hand over Bin Laden. Bush shut the door in their face.

The reason? Because throughout the past decade, the Taleban had been making life difficult for the US by refusing to allow a gas pipeline through Afghanistan to transport gas from the Caspian Sea. This was an enormous strategic and economic problem for the US. This is why the Neo Cons had publically stated their support for military action in Afghanistan long before 911 happened.

When 911 happened, the Neo Cons used this as their excuse. They also used it as their excuse to make sure Iraqi oil started flowing to the West. No sane person could make a link between 911 and Sadam Hussein.

If you want to find out the real background to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the laughable 'war on terror', take a look at the following excellent 3 part BBC documentary:

The Power of Nightmares Part One

The Power of Nightmares Part Two

The Power of Nightmares Part Three

[popcornmaster]

you dont have to legalise heroin for that to work, simply buy the crop for use as morphine in medicine. ensure the safe movement of it and your local afghani has a legal, cash crop that the rest of the world depends upon, bought by goverments, and he can feed, clothe, & house his family leading to much less radicalisation of young muslims in that country.

but hey, what do i know

[titch juicy]

FFS Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 as all credible evedince both at the time and since has has shown

[fur_q]

fairplay mate, no need to get antsy. As i think i've made clear in other posts i'm not exactly clued up on the whole thing, and am trying to learn. So al-quaeda have no sympathy from iraq then?

[Tugger2k]

fairplay mate, no need to get antsy. As i think i've made clear in other posts i'm not exactly clued up on the whole thing, and am trying to learn. So al-quaeda have no sympathy from iraq then?

[.jay.]

> what would have been a sensible reaction by the west to 9/11?

to go after those responsible, and not launch random wars using 9/11 as an excuse.

If UK was to operate on the same basis as the USA or Israel, we'd have nuked Belfast and Eire for the IRAs doings, and would have bombed the shit out of Leeds for the London bombs.

[.jay.]

if somebody threw a shoe at a visiting dignitary in the UK he would have been arrested and charged and face a court case and he too would be facing a ridiculous possible maximum sentence.

but those maximum sentences are just guidelines and rarely handed out unless the person has a fairly big criminal record that relates to this offence he is charged with.

all that will happen to this guy in Iraq is he will end up with a small slap on the wrist and perhaps a small prison sentence but will get released instantly due to time served.

he is the perfect pawn for the powers that be that Iraq has the supposed new and improved legal system the west has helped introduce and he will become their shining example of this.

by the time this has been spun his daft protest will have turned out to have been one of the most counter productive shoot yourself in the foot protests ever undertaken.

Edited February 18, 2009 by .jay.

[hypnotiseme]

by the time this has been spun his daft protest will have turned out to have been one of the most counter productive shoot yourself in the foot protests ever undertaken.

[eFestivals]

admitidlly, they had been causing issues over the pipeline, but they should have just handed him over straight up. trying to deal in some way over handing over a man they had been harbouring for years, while it suited their purpose, was nuts.

hmmmmm ..... does the USA hand over its nationals (or even residents) to other countries just on the demand of those other countries, and allow them to be subjected to the justice systems of other countries? Not a chance - they won't even allow their citizens to be subject to international law.

Then why should they expect different of others?

im not denying the neo-cons used it, but had the afghanis just handed him over the neo-cons would have no moral high ground to stand on.

yeah, every nation should be the slave of the USA. Oh, that's how the USA already considers things, which is how we got here in the first place.

Now, seeing that the majority of those directly involved in 9/11 (and very probably the majority of those not directly involved, but still involved) were Saudi Arabians, where were the sanctions and threats (and more) of war and destruction against the Saudis? Have the Saudis done all that the USA has demanded of others in "the war on terror"? Has it f**k, and it remains the world's biggest breeding ground for Islamic terrorism, yet those words are never spoken.

How the f**k can the USA claim any moral authority?

i still support the action in afghanistan, it was and is legal, and i have friends over their risking their lives everyday.

iraq on the other hand is a whole different kettle of fish

it's as legal or illegal as the actions in Iraq - it has no better legal basis.

[pezzypops]

you all make it sound so easy- just go after the perpetrators...surely that's what they did- but wasn't finding them a little tricky considering the terrain, and the support network enjoyed by al-quaeda in afghanistan, pakistan, iraq etc?

[eFestivals]

the british army almost captured bin laden in the tora bora caves but were ordered to back off and let the american forces finish the job.

by the time the americans arrived, he was long gone.

well, that's what the British Army would like you, me, and their troops to believe anyhow - like all armies, it has to make its soldiers believe themselves the best in the world, else they're absolutely no good as soldiers.

[robith]

I'm a tad confused, which of his basic human rights is being infringed?

He broke a law and he's being punished. The punishment is draconian certainly.

Maybe the right to freedom of expression, but rights have obligations too. Throwing things at people isn't a particularly insightful way of expressing an opinion

[Mark E. Spliff]

I'm a tad confused, which of his basic human rights is being infringed?

[Alcatraz]

I'm a tad confused, which of his basic human rights is being infringed?

[robith]

1. He's already been beaten up.

2. A jail sentence is too much for a first-time offender carrying out what is clearly a publicity stunt. Throwing shoes? Think about it for a minute... However you look at it, it doesn't deserve 2 years of your life spent in a hellish jail.

3. In jail, he will be physically abused. (Okay, this is just conjecture, but would you want to be in his position, having seen the recent examples of Iraqi 'justice?' Hell, they couldn't even carry out the hanging of the century without having a bunch of thugs stood on the gallows hurling insults at the condemned.)

4. Finally, and most importantly. This man spoke for a huge proportion of Iraq. He was hailed as a hero for doing what he did. Bush is despised by many (probably most) Iraqis for unleashing a bloodbath on their country. Iraq is supposedly now a democracy. True democracies have to show toleration in the face of popular dissent and civil disobedience. By jailing this man for making a symbolic protest, Iraq betrays itself as a police state.

[.jay.]

by the time this has been spun his daft protest will have turned out to have been one of the most counter productive shoot yourself in the foot protests ever undertaken.

Edited February 18, 2009 by .jay.

[krisskross]