politics and issues

[alframsey]

Research the Falklands war and particularly the sinking of the Belgrano.

[alframsey]

Oh dear.

[jameshunt]

Yeh, Im not denying she lied. But my arguement was she didn't lie about her manifesto or policies. The Falklands War was an unforseen event for which she couldn't outline policy.

[Tank]

I wouldn't say it was the fault of parenting as an individual effect, its the whole network of how ideology works really. Its not just the set-up of what we would perceive as 'middle-class', heteronormative familial structures (which I totally agree with you, they're very much a product of Thatcherite Britain) but also the media, education and govermental structures which cause people to fall into a sense of things being 'natural' and 'right' (hence the general apathy for politics in the past 20 years - a supposedly stable economy = nothing to question of challenge).

I think places LIKE Glasto have to have their areas which encourage a sense of community, which questions the current (highly powerful) ideology, make people THINK about the position as consumers and the consumed. The problem is, it is very difficult to break into peoples consciousness with these issues (I spend a lot of time arguing with my mates about these things) but I do feel it is really important.

I do, however, see a few changes around my home town to do with levels of political activism. A couple of months ago there was a march for peace in the Palestine, a lot of local guest speakers, and I was very proud whe there was an amazing turn out for it. Totally didn't expect it at all. Then, like I say, a number of groups and fanzines have started to appear.

At the end of the day, the young can blame the old for their apathy and vice cersa, its whether you choose to do something about it, to stand up for what you believe is right, thats what makes the difference.

ANd don't even get me STARTED on feminism hahaha

[russycarps]

You clearly dont understand the history of British Political Ideologies do you?!?!?! I actually had a lecture this morning on the arguement 'The Torries and Thatcher: Whats the difference?'. There are many differences between the two. For example the Torries believed that society/community was a corner stone of British life, Thatcher said there is no society, there are many differences. I suggest you read a book called 'Thatcher'. Its very good on explaining the differences between the two simply and clearly for those that struglle to graps them!

[alframsey]

She lied about the economy, the increase in unemployment (admitted by Dennis Healey). She claimed during the miners' strike that it was not her intention to close down British coal production.

The Falklands war was a deliberate ploy to stay in power and also to protect her husband's oil rights.

[alframsey]

mate, I lived through it. I don't care what you are learning at school or university and, no offence, I certainly dont need to be preached at by a f**king student!! Jesus! You will probably be told a completely different theory next term.

I hate to say this but when I was at University I certainly wouldn't have got away with having such dreadful spelling either! I knew standards were slipping but bloody hell!

Edited March 19, 2009 by alframsey

[jameshunt]

OK, ues she lied. I admit i am wrong here. Sorry, but however much you/I hated her, we have to respect her don't we? She knew what she wanted and she got it.

[alframsey]

Godwin's law here: Hitler knew what he wanted and very nearly got it. Do you have to respect him?

I will be one of the first to dance on Thatcher's grave.

[jameshunt]

No you don't, but I respect Thatcher.

p.s. I think dancing on her grave is a bit strong. Why do you hate her so much?

[alframsey]

Not enough hours in the day to give that question the answer it requires.

[jameshunt]

Ok, but is it simply because of what she did to the Trade Unions, or what she did to society in general?

[alframsey]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7952388.stm

Seems the mining industry was doomed before she came to power.

[alframsey]

Look at the state of modern society. Look at the disenfranchised generation. Look at the state of transport in this country. Look at the ever increasing gap between the haves and the have nots. All Thacher's legacy - continued by her acolytes (Major, then Blair, now Brown)... Look at the annual consumer cost of water...

Look at the state of the economy (not just the bank crisis) but the fact that this country hardly manufactures anything any longer, and those companies that still do are foreign owned.

That's just the start. What she did to the unions was similar to what she did in taking away liberty and the right to protest in general - sadly a trend that has been more than continued by the current Tories in Labour clothing that we call our government.

[jameshunt]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7952388.stm

Seems the mining industry was doomed before she came to power.

[alframsey]

Does it? I just see graphs showing a downward trend - no analysis of cause and effect.

Are you telling me that we are better off now, with North Sea oil & gas production drying up, being held to ransom by Russia's gas supply?

[jameshunt]

So are you a Socialist?

[Alcatraz]

Oh no, im not happy now. But i was simply observing there was a downturn in production. And no, id rather we weren't at the will of Russian Gas.

My uncle lives in Gwent, Wales, and aparently there is tons upon tons of coal in the valeys and mountains but they wont let anyone mine them. Not sure why given the current umployment rate and energy problems!

[alframsey]

Taking coal out of the ground isn't environmentally friendly enough, neither is its conversion into electricity. Its unfortunate, because we are still blessed with a lot of the stuff, but the coal industry will be gone in about 30 years throughout the globe. I'm also sure there are still a lot of sensitivities over who would own the mines and whether the new generations are prepared to go down into the pits again

[alframsey]

I'm not. I don't fit into that pigeon hole. However, if I have to choose between socialism and what the Tories (and new Labour) bring, then I'd have to side with socialism.

[hallamboy]

What a great thread this is, and I would just love to put my two penneth worth in.

I am kind of sitting on the fence on where my views on what has been discussed. I do believe that the youth of today aren't as engaged in politics as in times gone by (sweeping generalisation, but hey, everyone else is doing it ). However I do believe that there are reasons for this. Firstly in my teens, in the early 90's we were battling the Torys after almost two decades in charge. Conservative policies not just here but in the states as well had brought the active left to a boiling point. We had the poll tax riots, the criminal justice bill, action against travellers and the distruction of industrial communites across the country. In 1997 there was a collective sigh of relief followed by sustained financial growth, so there was this sense everything was alright for a while. Little did we know, that wasn't the case, and many took their eye off the ball.

There was this sense that I observed, that we in the UK didn't need to engage with politics because the all conquring 'new labour' had come to power.

On a music front, bands with a massive political agenda were the rallying call. RATM, Levellers, early Manics to name the obvious few were part of the conscienceness, but where have their like gone?

I do believe that that for many, life has been confortable and that has bred political active apathy in an older and a younger generation. I agree with a statment made earlier that the knowledge of political issues may not have subsided, but the willingness to be active has.

I for one am probably guilty of this. I have always voiced my opinion to those in the close proximity, but very little on a more widespread basis. I've done the odd march/protest but am not an active member of a political party. That is however going to change. I am at a point where I feel in myself that I need to put my money where my mouth is, and join the fight. This isn't due to any political event, just a need with in me to fight for what I think is right.

I would say to the likes of Sam and Alf, I respect you opinion, and also respect your youth (I'm not old, just older than yourselves). I understand you have no political role models and that no one really engages you guys, but I would say this. You are not unique, your generation isn't. Every generation has this, but you have a chance here. Seek out your political stance, even if it doesn't come from the big two parties. And when you have found it, fight for it, because at this time you will make a big difference. Honestly there is no age divide in engaging in politics you believe in.

As for Glastonbury, I think that as a festival it should be ramping up politics rather than scaling back. There are some monster problems out there, from climate change to dodgy corporations; and arms trading to human rights. Now is not the time to drop the ball, now is the time to get politics back on the Pyramid stage as well as around the site. The festival has politics as is heart beat, lets make that heart beat louder.

Idealistic rant over!

[alframsey]

What a great thread this is, and I would just love to put my two penneth worth in.

I am kind of sitting on the fence on where my views on what has been discussed. I do believe that the youth of today aren't as engaged in politics as in times gone by (sweeping generalisation, but hey, everyone else is doing it ). However I do believe that there are reasons for this. Firstly in my teens, in the early 90's we were battling the Torys after almost two decades in charge. Conservative policies not just here but in the states as well had brought the active left to a boiling point. We had the poll tax riots, the criminal justice bill, action against travellers and the distruction of industrial communites across the country. In 1997 there was a collective sigh of relief followed by sustained financial growth, so there was this sense everything was alright for a while. Little did we know, that wasn't the case, and many took their eye off the ball.

There was this sense that I observed, that we in the UK didn't need to engage with politics because the all conquring 'new labour' had come to power.

On a music front, bands with a massive political agenda were the rallying call. RATM, Levellers, early Manics to name the obvious few were part of the conscienceness, but where have their like gone?

I do believe that that for many, life has been confortable and that has bred political active apathy in an older and a younger generation. I agree with a statment made earlier that the knowledge of political issues may not have subsided, but the willingness to be active has.

I for one am probably guilty of this. I have always voiced my opinion to those in the close proximity, but very little on a more widespread basis. I've done the odd march/protest but am not an active member of a political party. That is however going to change. I am at a point where I feel in myself that I need to put my money where my mouth is, and join the fight. This isn't due to any political event, just a need with in me to fight for what I think is right.

I would say to the likes of Sam and Alf, I respect you opinion, and also respect your youth (I'm not old, just older than yourselves). I understand you have no political role models and that no one really engages you guys, but I would say this. You are not unique, your generation isn't. Every generation has this, but you have a chance here. Seek out your political stance, even if it doesn't come from the big two parties. And when you have found it, fight for it, because at this time you will make a big difference. Honestly there is no age divide in engaging in politics you believe in.

As for Glastonbury, I think that as a festival it should be ramping up politics rather than scaling back. There are some monster problems out there, from climate change to dodgy corporations; and arms trading to human rights. Now is not the time to drop the ball, now is the time to get politics back on the Pyramid stage as well as around the site. The festival has politics as is heart beat, lets make that heart beat louder.

Idealistic rant over!

[hallamboy]

I have stated I love politics, one of my two passions infact. I am going to become politically active and i plan to remain so.

[scudetto_boy]

have the veterans noticed the festival becoming less political over the years, with the loss of the leftfield this year it will become a lot less. This is another vital area that differs Glasto from the commerical festivals. Would loved to have gone in the CND era. Did the hedonism of the rave culture bring an end to Glasto as a gathering for the like minded? I love wandering around the festival and seeing all the different people and the different reasons that they are there. Just seems sad that a lot of the youth of the day just want to be seen on the tele. Come on youth take the baton.

[alframsey]

That's cool mate, sorry I was making a statement as a regular contributor of the thread. Take it as a 'bravo Alf' if this is is what you are already doing. :-)