Big Green Gathering 2009

[elfweirdigan]

I'm disinclined at the moment to believe ANY particular comment on this subject unless it's substantiated by a few different reliable sources. Not because I think anyone is necessarily intending to fib, it's just that there are so many ways to interpret and misinterpret...

I don't know the ins and outs of the hard emergency trackway issue and there's been far too much comment already by people who don't really know what they're talking about, so I wouldn't want to make a judgement without doing more research. I'd need to know why and when the trackway was cancelled, and understand the layout of the site, tracks and emergency plans before commenting further. As I haven't really got time to do all that at the moment I'm just going to follow my own advice and keep an open mind... Cheers...

[eFestivals]

I'm shocked and disappointed by efestivals partial take on this. 'Paranoid shite' and 'Claptrap'? Who has an axe to grind here?

clearly BGG do, with their paranoid shite and their claptrap.

Rather than them hold their hands and say "we messed up so bad that it simply wasn't possible for the festival to go ahead" - and they did - they're putting out ridiculous conspiracy theories of no relevance whatsoever.

The simple fact is: breeched licence = no festival.

Any expectation of anything else in this health & safety/duty of care obsessed world is unrealistic.

And having read the MDC minutes, there appear to have been quite a few unrealistic expectations by BGG with the whole licencing process. Knowing what licencing officials can be like, each unrealisitic muttering is likely to have eroded some of the faith those officials might have hard in BGG's ability to fulfil the licence conditions.

The only thing it seems BGG could have seriously lost an injunction on is the Road Closure issue, and as efestivals notes, when BGG put in the application for the order they were assured by someone in the Road Agency office that it would be processed. So what did they do so terribly wrong other than trust that official and tick off 'road closure order dealt with' on their excessively long list of H&S issues to be addressed?

it's not ticked off until the road closure orders are granted - processed does not necessarily equal granted.

[strudders]

I am reading all this fully impartial as I don't know all the facts from all the parties, however I would ask the following question:

If it was my festival, if it was my project would I allow any of the issues to have got as far as they were????

Knowing the hoops jumped through by another festival this year I can not see how any of the organisers allowed this to happen.

I am a project manager by trade and I am sorry you do not leave anything to chance. In your project plan/road map each milestone is appointed date for completing based on practicalities and goal requirements with, if need be, contingency. Putting paper work in late fits none.

As I see it, if anybody was truly committed and on top of their game all these milestones would have been achieved within the RULES set out by the licensing authorities. That is how you manage projects and the same way you would manage an event. Failing to do so is failing the project.

Now if the BGG were not told these dates, then yes! fire a full broadside at MDC for for moving the goal posts and making it impossible. However having closed many roads in Sussex in my time I am aware of the process, the paper work and the hoops to jump through and sorry they are just not that big.

It seems that a basic lack of honesty from some needs to be addressed instead of passing the buck and making this something that it clearly is not.

Its not as if this is the only festival in the MDC area after all.....

[elfweirdigan]

I'm still confused by 'admin' of efestivals tone in some of these posts.

Sure, it's valid to express doubt, relate facts and offer possible alternatives to the BGG arguments... but it seems wrong for the moderators of a festival information website to use inflammatory and insulting terms regarding the organisers of a festival: 'claptrap', 'paranoid shite', 'ridiculous' etc. Why is 'admin' doing this?

[strudders]

I'm still confused by 'admin' of efestivals tone in some of these posts.

Sure, it's valid to express doubt, relate facts and offer possible alternatives to the BGG arguments... but it seems wrong for the moderators of a festival information website to use inflammatory and insulting terms regarding the organisers of a festival: 'claptrap', 'paranoid shite', 'ridiculous' etc. Why is 'admin' doing this?

[Paul ™]

Well said Strudders and exactly how I see things too

[elfweirdigan]

The way I see it the BGG organisers, while exhausted and devastated, have been working hard to explain to people what's happened and to work with other festivals to get ticket exchanges set up, traders relocated etc... with updates to their website as events progress and apologies for the time it may take for them to answer phones and emails as they're obviously snowed under. When I contacted them I was amazed at how quickly I got responses and how honest and lovely the people I spoke to were - though I shouldn't have been so surprised because after all, these are some of the people who pioneered festivals and have been trying their best to keep alive the independent festival spirit in the face of increasingly prohibitive rules and costs alongside a commercialisation of festivals that threatens to turn them all into a version of the same pedestrianised highstreet with identikit traders... It seems like that Orwellian world is one that some of you may be inadvertantly giving a helping hand to...

I have other things to do now so can't continue this debate much longer... As an old hippy preaching love and understanding I seem to be in a bit of a minority here... and now I've got some independent festivals to go get involved in and Green issues that need addressing....

[strudders]

The way I see it the BGG organisers, while exhausted and devastated, have been working hard to explain to people what's happened and to work with other festivals to get ticket exchanges set up, traders relocated etc... with updates to their website as events progress and apologies for the time it may take for them to answer phones and emails as they're obviously snowed under. When I contacted them I was amazed at how quickly I got responses and how honest and lovely the people I spoke to were - though I shouldn't have been so surprised because after all, these are some of the people who pioneered festivals and have been trying their best to keep alive the independent festival spirit in the face of increasingly prohibitive rules and costs alongside a commercialisation of festivals that threatens to turn them all into a version of the same pedestrianised highstreet with identikit traders... It seems like that Orwellian world is one that some of you may be inadvertantly giving a helping hand to...

I have other things to do now so can't continue this debate much longer... As an old hippy preaching love and understanding I seem to be in a bit of a minority here... and now I've got some independent festivals to go get involved in and Green issues that need addressing....

[Sawdusty surfer]

Hmmmm.

despite the two above posts being in disagreement, i agree with both of them.

and sadly the days of free festivals really are long gone.

festival organisers don't even have to worry about convoys turning up anymore.

we can still do our thing, but there are hoops that have to be jumped through and that leads to less freedom than we used to have.

although it hurts to say it, that isn't always such a bad thing. "They've" just tightened it up too much.

[Seem Silly]

I too am surprised and concerned by eFestivals take on this.

quotes:

Jul 29 2009, 03:35 PM

eFestivals has just had a long chat with a BGG director.

Jul 31 2009, 08:32 AM

QUOTE (bobthelob2009 @ Jul 30 2009, 07:05 PM)

A very simple question for the BGG.....

Did you have the road closure order in place in time to meet the conditions that YOU agreed to?

We have asked this specific question. The BGG's answer was "no".

We have also asked: was the road closure paperwork submitted before the specified deadline? The BGG's answer was also "no".

EFestivals, you surely cannot have spoken to a director on Mon 29th or subsequently and have been told this, just as you put it?

I think you will find the answer to either question is not a simple "no" and said answers are being debated by lawyers about now. Either you are underinformed, or have "taken a view".

Other articles are posted here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009...ng-climate-camp

http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/news685.htm

Mike, there was a whole new traffic route round site this year. No track through Canyon. Didn't absorb more come Sunday as hardly worthwhile.

Info for ticketholders is on BGG website homepage. Suggest people check there rather than here.

[eFestivals]

I'm still confused by 'admin' of efestivals tone in some of these posts.

Sure, it's valid to express doubt, relate facts and offer possible alternatives to the BGG arguments... but it seems wrong for the moderators of a festival information website to use inflammatory and insulting terms regarding the organisers of a festival: 'claptrap', 'paranoid shite', 'ridiculous' etc. Why is 'admin' doing this?

Because I believe that BGG are putting out press releases that are full of claptrap and paranoid shite.

It is BGG that are using the inflammatory and insulting terms, with their claims that none of the failure of BGG to go ahead was their own fault for not fulfilling their licence requirements - they are trying to shift their own failings onto others.

The simple fact is: no festival can expect to be able to go ahead when it's failed to fulfil its licence requirements. BGG did not fulfil its licence requirements, and the failure to do so was their own doing.

[eFestivals]

The way I see it the BGG organisers, while exhausted and devastated, have been working hard to explain to people what's happened and to work with other festivals to get ticket exchanges set up, traders relocated etc... with updates to their website as events progress and apologies for the time it may take for them to answer phones and emails as they're obviously snowed under. When I contacted them I was amazed at how quickly I got responses and how honest and lovely the people I spoke to were - though I shouldn't have been so surprised because after all, these are some of the people who pioneered festivals and have been trying their best to keep alive the independent festival spirit in the face of increasingly prohibitive rules and costs alongside a commercialisation of festivals that threatens to turn them all into a version of the same pedestrianised highstreet with identikit traders... It seems like that Orwellian world is one that some of you may be inadvertantly giving a helping hand to...

I have other things to do now so can't continue this debate much longer... As an old hippy preaching love and understanding I seem to be in a bit of a minority here... and now I've got some independent festivals to go get involved in and Green issues that need addressing....

1. the BGG organisers have failed to respond to at least one festival organiser (and, I believe, actually quite a few) who offered a ticket exchange for the customer of BGG that BGG let down.

2. As far as I've heard, nothing has been done by BGG for the traders they've let down (this is certainly the case with some traders).

3. BGG failed to tell their customers of many of the offers they'd had until they'd had those offers for many days, and in some cases not at all. In many cases, eFestivals has been able to tell the world of these offers much sooner than BGG has (and in some of these cases, those organisers have come direct to us after BGG has failed to tell their customers).

4. at least one person at BGG has been encouraging or advising their customers who phone BGG to use their BGG wristbands to access as many of these offers as they can, to the detriment of those festivals who have come to the aid of the let-down BGG customers.

=====

You won't find me disagreeing with you about some of the unnecessary rules and their associated costs that are forced onto festivals - in many cases what they are forced to do is, IMO, over the top. This applies to just about any and every festival.

However ..... any protest about these rules that anyone might like to make is something outside of the licencing process as it exists under those rules, and every festival has to work to those rules if it wishes to go ahead inside the law. The middle of a licencing process is not the place to make a protest about these rules - you either work to the rules as they are, or you accept that you're not going to get your licence.

Fact: BGG agreed with MDC what rules they'd work to; BGG did not then do what they'd agreed to do, due to their own failings.

Edited August 3, 2009 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

EFestivals, you surely cannot have spoken to a director on Mon 29th or subsequently and have been told this, just as you put it?

Yes, eFestivals* HAS spoken to a BGG director, and been told PRECISELY that fact. This conversation was held on Wednesday 29th July, with Penny Kemp.

(* in this case it wasn't me personally, but a colleague at eFestivals. We have a recording of the conversation for our reference, and in case of any comeback from what we have or might publish from it).

I think you will find the answer to either question is not a simple "no" and said answers are being debated by lawyers about now. Either you are underinformed, or have "taken a view".

The answer *IS* a simple "no" from what we were told by that BGG director: the road closure requests were not put in on time.

You can read for yourself in the press release in this thread with the comments in green made by BGG an admission by BGG that their lawyer advised them that they would lose the injunction request on the basis of BGG not having got the road closure orders needed to fulfil their licence.

As I understand it, BGG claim to have been told by a junior employee of MDC's highways dept that the closure request would be processed anyway despite it having been submitted after the deadline for closure requests, but that it wasn't then processed - this is of course unfortunate for BGG. However, as I also understand it, there was absolutely no follow-up by BGG after having been told that, to find out if the closure requests were processed or granted. Unless the closure orders were granted, BGG is in breech of its licence.

Other articles are posted here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009...ng-climate-camp

http://www.schnews.org.uk/archive/news685.htm

And? These have taken the BGGs view 100%. They have not looked at the actual facts of the matter.

Info for ticketholders is on BGG website homepage. Suggest people check there rather than here.

It's only worth doing that if BGG have actually caught up with the rest of the world. Have they?

Edited August 3, 2009 by eFestivals

[llcoolphil]

The way I see it the BGG organisers, while exhausted and devastated, have been working hard to explain to people what's happened and to work with other festivals to get ticket exchanges set up, traders relocated etc... with updates to their website as events progress and apologies for the time it may take for them to answer phones and emails as they're obviously snowed under. When I contacted them I was amazed at how quickly I got responses and how honest and lovely the people I spoke to were - though I shouldn't have been so surprised because after all, these are some of the people who pioneered festivals and have been trying their best to keep alive the independent festival spirit in the face of increasingly prohibitive rules and costs alongside a commercialisation of festivals that threatens to turn them all into a version of the same pedestrianised highstreet with identikit traders... It seems like that Orwellian world is one that some of you may be inadvertantly giving a helping hand to...

I have other things to do now so can't continue this debate much longer... As an old hippy preaching love and understanding I seem to be in a bit of a minority here... and now I've got some independent festivals to go get involved in and Green issues that need addressing....

[Seem Silly]

Sorry I can't get the quotes to work on this...

EFestivals, you certainly didn't get the whole truth in your conversation with Penny Kemp on Wed 29th about road closure orders. Are you by any chance asking only closed questions or reporting only part of the info given? There is certainly more news and it is in the hands of lawyers, so that's it from me on that I'm afraid.

You say that you "believe that"... followed by more stuff about BGG giving out "bullshit" and "claptrap". I think it comes across that your stance is that of winning an arguement rather than finding out what happened.

You have not reported on many other spanners that were thrown last minute in the works and that the event withstood, as the per the Event Management Plan which had been negotiated for months and in place for weeks.

And why should I not point people in the direction of the Guardian and Schnews? Should they not read accounts other than yours?

And as to the BGG webpage, can you not just check it yourselves before putting out stuff that alternative events had not been announced, ticket holders abandoned and traders left high and dry? There is as much news as we have on there right now and it IS being updated regularly.

I only logged on to correct that mistake with the date on my post. Suppose I should thank your benevolence that you didn't have a big scoff at that, or maybe stop me from posting and everybody else too and lock the thread... it would probbly be considered a "proportionate response" in the current climate!

[eFestivals]

EFestivals, you certainly didn't get the whole truth in your conversation with Penny Kemp on Wed 29th about road closure orders. Are you by any chance asking only closed questions or reporting only part of the info given? There is certainly more news and it is in the hands of lawyers, so that's it from me on that I'm afraid.

We asked a very specific question, to get to the bottom of the road closures order thing. The question asked (near enough, anyway) was "Was the road closure request submitted before the deadline for road closure requests?" - the answer we were given was "no".

Yes, I'm aware that it's claimed by BGG that an indication was given by a junior highways dept employee that it would be processed anyway. But processed (if it was processed, I don't believe it was) is not the same as granted. Unless the request was granted then the licence was breeched.

As I understand it, BGG believe that that employee was told by his boss not to process the request. However, if the request was made after the required date, then it's quite reasonable for that boss to veto the processing of a late request however much trouble that might cause the organisation who is making the request. Bureaucracy has the bad reputation it does because this is how such people work.

You say that you "believe that"... followed by more stuff about BGG giving out "bullshit" and "claptrap". I think it comes across that your stance is that of winning an arguement rather than finding out what happened.

it's certainly claptrap to suggest that the council should allow any festival to go ahead when it's clearly in breech of its licence, as BGG have done (the proof is posted in this very thread using BGG's own words - the bits in the BGG press release in green text ). I'm not aware of any council that would let any festival go ahead in those circumstances.

The best that might happen is that the licence would, after discussions with the council, be amended with alternative measures put in place so that the council were satisfied that THEIR legal obligations around licencing (public safety, etc) were being met - it is not only the licencee that has legal obligations, but the licencing council too. While an organisation such as BGG might not take it's obligations seriously (note: I'm not saying BGG didn't), it's certainly the case that any council will do.

You have not reported on many other spanners that were thrown last minute in the works and that the event withstood, as the per the Event Management Plan which had been negotiated for months and in place for weeks.

This because we have been unable to build any clear picture of what these spanners were and why or if they were thrown. We have made both versions of events available, for people to make up their own minds.

There are certainly disagreements from each side about these things and what actually happened.

However, being reasonably familiar with how licencing works and having read the MDC minutes, things such as BGGs suggestion on 9th June that a police presence was unnecessary will have, I think, put into the licencing officers minds that BGG wanted to work to (in MDC's minds) a totally unrealistic plan. Things such as this may well have had an impact on the whole process, and helped undermine any faith those licencing offers might have had in BGGs ability to fulfil their licencing obligations.

And why should I not point people in the direction of the Guardian and Schnews? Should they not read accounts other than yours?

the very fact that the links you posted still exist exactly as you posted them shows that eFestivals have no issues with people reading those accounts.

However, in both, a number of totally unsubstantiated allegations are made by BGG, and little if any mention is made of the indisputable fact that the required road closure orders were not in place and so BGG was in breech of its licence. Those articles are written from the perspective that BGG should have been allowed to go ahead when in breech of its licence - this is clearly idiocy.

And as to the BGG webpage, can you not just check it yourselves before putting out stuff that alternative events had not been announced, ticket holders abandoned and traders left high and dry? There is as much news as we have on there right now and it IS being updated regularly.

We've been checking it regularly - most if not all times we've run any story on offers to ticket-holders, we've been far ahead of BGG. The simple fact is that you couldn't even get info up about offers from those with very close relationships to BGG online promptly, and that other offers made to BGG for their ticketholders have been ignored entirely.

I also know of several traders who have not had contact from BGG about alternatives, and who made their own alternative arrangements to trade at another festival for the weekend just gone (the weekend that would have been BGG if it had gone ahead.). Whether or not other traders have been contacted I don't know, but I've not heard of any that have been.

I only logged on to correct that mistake with the date on my post. Suppose I should thank your benevolence that you didn't have a big scoff at that, or maybe stop me from posting and everybody else too and lock the thread... it would probbly be considered a "proportionate response" in the current climate!

..... yeah, the world is against the oh-so-righteous BGG.

This website supports *ALL* festivals which have a significant music part as a part of their offering (which includes the BGG). In fact, this website gave the BGG money it could not really afford to give the BGG, when the BGG was in deep financial shite just under two years ago. The amount given wasn't huge, but it was all we could afford to give (and ultimately, it's money that would have otherwise come to me, so it was at my personal expense). I have no problem supporting festivals, including the BGG.

BUT .... there are rules and laws about how festivals should be run. Whether or not I support those rules and laws (and ultimately, I don't) is of no relevance here; those are the rules and laws that any festival needs to abide by if that festival wishes to go ahead within the law.

Bearing in mind those rules and laws, it is unrealistic for any festival to expect to go ahead if it is unable to meet the conditions put on it by those rules and laws.

Did the BGG meet the conditions that it had? No!!! This is admitted by BGG themselves, and is why BGG handed back its licence.

I think that you should bear in mind that it is not only MDC that clearly felt that this year's organisation of BGG was shambolic - all around the net can be found comments along these lines, many pre-dating even the licence being granted, and nearly all from people who should have strong sympathies towards BGG (including, for example, an ex-BGG site manager who has posted in this thread).

If there was any conspiracy to kill off the BGG as the BGG would like people to believe, were all of those people also a part of the conspiracy? Or is it simply the case that BGG f**ked up? The evidence from those not within BGG or the council or police but who claim to be in the know of all that's gone one (which I don't claim myself) all seems to say the same thing: that BGG f**ked up.

What I do claim to know myself is: no festival can reasonably expect to go ahead when it's in breech of its licence as BGG was.

Edited August 3, 2009 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

right, I now have seen a certain something which suggests - just suggests mind - that BGG might have a point. If they'd stuck to facts such as this and not tried putting across the mad idea that they should be allowed to go ahead without a licence then I'd have had a litgle more confidence from the off.

What have I seen? I can't say. For some strange reason BGG feel it's better not made public at this time.

Meanwhile, I'm off to look at some ins & outs, to see if the BGGs suggestions are borne out in reality. Perhaps when I can say what I've seen I won't be as positive about it.

[sam medley]

If you made an effort, you could get even more hyperbole in this post

[bobthelob2009]

right, I now have seen a certain something which suggests - just suggests mind - that BGG might have a point. If they'd stuck to facts such as this and not tried putting across the mad idea that they should be allowed to go ahead without a licence then I'd have had a litgle more confidence from the off.

What have I seen? I can't say. For some strange reason BGG feel it's better not made public at this time.

Meanwhile, I'm off to look at some ins & outs, to see if the BGGs suggestions are borne out in reality. Perhaps when I can say what I've seen I won't be as positive about it.

[paulo999]

I'm assuming this is the existence of road closure notices posted in the area.

Whether they demonstrate that a closure had been granted, or simply an expectation I'm not sure. I think Mendip's position is the latter. If that holds up, then the situation remains the same.

[Seem Silly]

Perhaps you won't be so positive about it later... Well, you've got just over 6 hours to come up with some more detailed observations if that is your bent. I just wish you would put the same devotion into investigating all the other facts, which you have been given.

BTW An obvious explanation for the embargo is that the matter is a legal one ("why-oh-why do these people..? )

Meanwhile, a few terms that might be useful to all:

cropping - taking a piece of the picture, quote or story and blowing it up as the centrpiece

captioning - showing you a picture of something and telling you what it is

value-laden terms - emotive terms for things, value judgements that people may have different viewpoints on

No accusations, just a few tools for the trade in going through ALL the reports. It is probable that most communication and all news items will have some of these, but recognising them is IMO a useful lifeskill.

Good luck Sam, you are where it's at! (Just try not to have too many people that might change the world in the same place at the same time, or the pass rate for you too might be set at 100% - as apparently it is for everybody and they all manage it!)

[paulo999]

FYI: The embargo was broken an hour or two ago by a sympathiser.

[Seem Silly]

Hi Paulo,

I'd actually written that before I saw your post. Yes, it's on the BGG shareholder forum but hasn't been pulled as it's a media issue, not a legal one. Would still ask all to respect that embargo.

At least I know where you get your info on MDC so quick. (Was beginning to get paranoid for real.)

[llcoolphil]

what sort of thing you tied up in?

harlequin fayre, next year (yep, this year got cancelled - entirely my own fault, should have accepted i was starting thje ball rolling too late) in august, in east anglia. everything boring is now in place, lots of exciting stuff too, now there's a year to play and tweak it about, make a small (up to 1000) 3 day event, fully solar powered. what we did before was loved, so fingers crossed for the future. all those interested get in touch through www.medleyproductions.co.uk

it is a tragedy about BGG. as to the why.... well, we'll all have out thoughts on that. my take on it is to keep going, do what i can, and that used to include varied involvement at BGG. we've lost our national style gig, maybe another will take it's place, in the meantime keep it rolling with the little ones!!

sam

[elfweirdigan]

This is what I mean about hyperbole - why is it a tragedy? What is tragic about a festival not going ahead? It's disappointing certainly - but tragic? And who is the 'we' and what is the 'national style gig' representing?