Big Green Gathering 2009

[llcoolphil]

It is fairly tragic - it's affected a LOT of people on so many levels. BGG was an important part of a lot of people's lives. Financially, emotionally... A 'tribal' gathering... a place and time to meet new and old friends, learn skills, share and swap information and trade... raise funds, raise consciousness... these things are important and BGG was a major hub.

(writing from a field, now...)

Edited August 4, 2009 by llcoolphil

[haznutuk]

I'm assuming this is the existence of road closure notices posted in the area.

[Guest Flip]

No - not even fairly tragic Im sorry. Fairly disappointing, but definitely not tragic. It's not a 'tribal gathering', it's an event anyone could buy a ticket for. This bit....

...we live in the 21st Century. Is anybody genuinely reliant on BGG to share and swap information? Id suggest that information that only gets shared and traded at a once a year event you have to buy a ticket for isn't that important.

Whilst I dont doubt that 'raising consciousness' around green issues is important, the idea that BGG is a major hub for this is, quite frankly, laughable - I'll bet if I ask 100 people outside the festival community about BGG, more than 90 of them wont have heard of it.

This is what I mean by hyperbole - it's making BGG stand for more than it actually is. It's a festival for a small community once a year. Green politics needs to get away from the idea that being green is about a bunch of tree-hugging hippies going barefoot and eating lentils (and go have a read at the 'political change' thread in the discussions area of these boards if you think Im making that up!!) - and reading this thread, that is exactly what I would take green politics to mean from a BGG perspective.

As I said earlier in this thread, the festival circuit is a better place for having BGG in it. I dont doubt that licencing conditions for small festivals are overly onerous and there needs to be a debate about how people are allowed (or not) to gather together. But the overt hyperbole surrounding BGG in this thread does the green movement a disservice. It is not a tragedy.

[Bezdad]

Theres a big possibility that this was tragic!! If it turns out that the authorities took a decision to force the BGG to not happen (yes Neil, I'm sure the BGG may have left the door open to enabling this to happen), then its another nail in the free-thinking coffin!

If the festival was seen as a gathering of people who think out of the box and was therefore seen as a threat and it transpires that the authorities were acting more to rid themselves of the BGG than to ensure safety to the public then tragic is a work I would use..

To elfweirdigan, seem silly and anyone else who offers more level point of view, I'm with you 100% (see my earlier posts in this thread)

[Guest Flip]

No. Phil's entirely right. We can all get hysterical about things at times, and he's provided a much needed sense of perspective. Tragedy is the death of a close friend or loved one, or being struck down with a terminal illness in your prime, or indeed a Bee Gees song. A tragedy is definitely not the cancellation of a weekend away in a field with some mates.

Again, that's not to belittle BGG - it looks like an important event on the calendars' of many festival loving folk, and behind the scenes there are doubtless many people who have worked damn hard for no reward. But the fact it isn't going ahead is a shame, no more than that.

[strudders]

Well, I am very sorry for my tragic misuse of the English language, seems a moot point really tho.. :angry:

[Guest Flip]

I agree but as has been said, we all need to get some perspective on this.

I think, as I stated in my post earlier, if there is a case that MDC did not play the game then great BGG will have there day in court, it will become national news and peoples head will roll!

Another one against to the fascist bullyboys! :angry:

However my initial view still stand.

If this is such a beacon of hope for the green community, if this is such and massive event and key to the ongoing struggle....

Why was it not cherished and looked after??

It just seems that to much was left to chance, at the punters expense, for the authortities, should they wish, to push the stop button and say.. "ah well you did not do such and such."

Also due dilligance is a must these days and as such all the stake holders must show it. Asking Midland fire to show theres is nothing new, I am always aking for the same from my suppliers when they work in Haz areas. Its the same bits of paper, its the same staff coming, but in the event it shows due dilligance, process and compliance.

Look, I really hope next year it's back on, I hope all the punters who have lost out get there money back and I hope one day I can go, but as I have said, things could have and should have been done better and that goes to both sides..... After all its the punters that make a festival not the promoters or authorities.....

[steveziggy101]

just seems to me everyone wants to be the first with the big scoop, all this barraking against each and every source all the time someone says a little somthing new,and hey here we go again.........time as they say is the healer let it all simmer down and then we see what the outcome and future is for bgg.enjoy whats left of the season.

[eFestivals]

Evidence of a conspiracy then???

Nope, just more things that are unclear as to the real facts.

I'm still left with the impression that the council didn't have enough faith in BGG to fulfil the licence conditions, and ultimately, this is the reason for everything. If they were going to act against it because of their lack of faith, then it's not surprising that they'd use anything and everything at their disposal to ensure that they got the upper hand - after all, in any dispute, that's the normal scenario.

[eFestivals]

BTW An obvious explanation for the embargo is that the matter is a legal one ("why-oh-why do these people..? )

nothing to do with trying to keep certain media outlets on side in the hope that they'd put across the BGG's side without comment then?

Shame it didn't work out that way, eh? It seems they're no more convinced of any conspiracy than I am, and give the cock-up idea equal weight.

[eFestivals]

No - not even fairly tragic Im sorry. Fairly disappointing, but definitely not tragic. It's not a 'tribal gathering', it's an event anyone could buy a ticket for.

yep - but not that many people did do tho.

And that's very relevant to everything too. It looked very much as tho - on advance sales - BGG would not be in the position to pay it's contractors (again ), which might well have led to those contractors walking off site and the festival operating outside its licence. This has happened to quite a few festivals this summer, and has put costs onto the councils and police forces that have had to pick up the pieces.

Perhaps that was what was driving the council's fears, and led them to take the action they did? Who knows? I don't, and it seems pretty clear that BGG don't either.

Edited August 4, 2009 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

If the festival was seen as a gathering of people who think out of the box and was therefore seen as a threat and it transpires that the authorities were acting more to rid themselves of the BGG than to ensure safety to the public then tragic is a work I would use..

if, if, if, if. Does it satisfy any of these ifs? Nope. Lentils don't kill.

[eFestivals]

we don't know the full story and some people took to berrating the organisers at an early juncture.

we know: the BGG made it's road closure application late. This is admitted by BGG. This was BGG cock-up. It gave MDC all the ammunition it needed to shut it down.

If you put a loaded gun in someone's hands then you have to expect them to pull the trigger.

I would be very surprised if the authorities would ever do anything untoward that could be held up in court,

similarly, they will put together the most solid case possible to use in a court. This is, I expect, the reason for the so-called superfluous items in the threatened injunction.

I keep getting involved in this discussion when I know that I know nothing about the intracasies of the whole situation and neither do most others on this thread...

and nor do BGG, but it hasn't stopped them putting out press releases full of conspiracy theories - when they have admitted to having cocked up the road closure application!!!

I don't seem to be able to find your equal condemnation of BGG to match the condemnation you're throwing my way. Why is that? It wouldn't be that you're not taking the middle ground that you're claiming would it?

[eFestivals]

That is referenced in this article by George Monbiot in todays Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/li...-police-licence

but no reference to the admission by BGG to having made their road closure application outside of the deadline.

[Seem Silly]

OK, but this is the flagship festival for the green movement (IMO and many others). For many, over 25 years, since 1994 when the company was founded, from whenever, it has brought a community together in which we can resume our natural shape, learn skills and find a diversity of ways forward. As such it is immensely valuable to us and represents much more than 5 days jollies in the summer.

(And yes, IMO we sure do need to learn skills, see earlier points re the crafts field for example.)

Whether it is a tragedy or not will depend on your viewpoint, and different viewpoints exist. For me it is certainly closer to "tradgedy" than "disappointment", but across the scale of those who have put in time and energy and/or lost hard cash, different descriptions apply.

George Monbiot's article, as Haznutuk posted, is here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/li...-police-licence

Road closures: Below is the press release discussed. (BTW, these relate to two small single track lanes round the back of the farm and a temporary speed restriction on B roads round the front).

Security: There is one big ommission from the Guardian article re the security company changing the deal to money up front - a temporary overdraft was arranged. This took a couple of days and just as the money was through, the police telephoned a director to tell them the security company had pulled out regardless. (Why were OUR contractors communicating with the police and not us?) Another security firm was then appointed. Then the police rang again to say they objected to us "not informing them" about the first security company pulling out. Presumably we should have rung them straight back and told them the news they had just told us?

Midland Fire: Below the press realease there's a bit about Midland Fire Security. Despite the Event Management Plan having been fully agreed with the authorities and the licence in place since 30th June, and not a squeak of objection out of Devon and Somerset Fire and Rescue services, on THURDAY 23rd JULY Devon and Somerset Fire and Rescue Services threw in a number of concerns/spanners re the use of Midland Fire. Midland Fire's credentials are below.

Press Release re road closures:

Embargoed Midnight 3rd August

Big Green Gathering

Press Notice

BIG GREEN GATHERING SHUT DOWN

Road Closure Order dated 20th July

When is a road closure not a road closure?

The injunction to stop the Big Green Gathering cited the fact that the Big Green Gathering could not gain a Road Closure order in time for the event, despite the fact that the Highways Department had told the Big Green Gathering Chair, Brig Oubridge that it would be done. On Tuesday, 28th July, after the Big Green Gathering had been forced to cancel the event, a staff member found the Road Closure Order by a hedge on the Cheddar Road and subsequently another was found still pinned to a gatepost. Other signs appeared to have been taken down and evidence of the silver tape was still in place.

The Big Green Gathering surrendered its licence on the advice of its lawyers because it believed that it was impossible to obtain a road closure order in the time available. It now appears that the order was in place from 20th July 2009. We find it difficult to understand why the Council and the police did not check to ensure that the order had not been made before they issued their intentions to go to court at 6.54 p.m. on Friday, 24th July 2009. The Big Green Gathering on the other hand had no way of contacting the Highways Authority after the offices had closed for the weekend. The Big Green Gathering also finds it strange that no witness statement was received from the Highways Authority in support of the assertion that there was no road closure order in place. A copy of the road closure order appears below.

The Somerset County Council highways department are now saying that this was not a road closure order. "These physical notices are purely for information purposes and are adverts for proposed road closures and temporary speed limits, rather then a copy of a Temporary Traffic Order. They were required as part of the procedure for temporary road closure and restrictions."

The Big Green Gathering organisers recognise the tremendous disappointment this has caused to those who bought tickets, traders and the locals. The Big Green Gathering normally brings in the order of £2million to the local economy and many local businesses are suffering in these times of recession because of the cancellation of the festival. The BGG had already spent over £200,000 on police, security, infrastructure and site wages.

Ends:

Photos of the road traffic order in situ are available

SOMERSET COUNTY COUNCIL

THE COUNTY OF SOMERSET (BIG GREEN GATHERING 2009)

(TEMPORARY TRAFFIC RESTRICTIONS) TEMPORARY NOTICE 2009

THE SOMERSET COUNTY COUNCIL in exercise of its powers under Section 14-16 of the Road Traffic regulation Act 1984 as amended, and of all other enabling powers, hereby makes the following Temporary Notice:-

1. This Notice shall come into operation on Monday 26th July 2009 and will continue in force until Monday 3rd August 2009.

The Following restrictions and prohibitions are made:-

A) To prohibit all traffic from proceeding along Nordrach Lane, from its junction with the B3134 to its junction with Cheddar Road, and Cheddar Road, from its junction with Nordrach Lane to its junction with the B3134

Temporary restriction of speed to 40mph on the B3134 from 500 meters South East of the junction with the B3371 in a North Westerly direction for a distance along said length of road of 2500 meters.

C) Temporary Prohibition of Waiting and Stopping of Vehicles on the B3134 from its junction with Old Bristol Road to its junction with Ubley Drove and the B3371 from its junction with the B3134 for a distance of 1250 metres.

These prohibitions are made by reason of the likelihood of danger to the public or of damage to the highway.

S Davidson-Grant

Corporate Director for the Environment

Dated the 20th July 2009

Re Midland Fire Services:

The Big Green Gathering has employed Midland Fire Services for several years now and there have been no serious fire issues at the Big Green Gathering. There have never been any objections to Midland Fire Services prior to this and indeed Midland Fire Services are well known in the event industry. Previous officers in the county fire brigade have praised the efficiency and ability of Midland Fire.

Midland Fire

Experience and Expertise

Events

We are specialists in the provision of fire protection and safety services for all types of outdoor events; large and small. We have over 10 years experience in providing such services, and have had the privilege to have been associated with many prestigious national events, major rock and music festivals. We have invested heavily in appropriate equipment and vehicles for the role.

Our Managing Director, Mr. Robin Crane is acknowledged as one of the leading specialists in event fire safety in the UK, and has written a large number of papers on the subject. He has been the site fire officer for one of Britain's leading rock festivals for 9 years, dealing with all aspects of fire safety and emergency response. He has also been invited to give presentations on special event fire safety to many organisations including other fire services.

• Fire Safety Consultancy

• Fire Risk Assessments

• Fire Extinguisher, Safety Sign and Fire Alarm hire

• Temporary Fire Alarm Systems

• Fire Extinguisher Sales and Maintenance

• Training Services

• Site Fire Officers and Trained Fire Fighters

• Fire and Rescue Standby Cover

• Water Bowser and Temporary Emergency Water Supply Containers

• Helicopter Support

• Health and Safety Services

Major Clients have included:

• VE Celebrations

• VJ Day Celebration

• The Queen's Silver Jubilee Celebrations

• The Royal Military Tattoo

• The Princes Trust Party in the Park

• The Royal Pageant of Horse

• The Reading Rock Festival 1994 to date

• The Leeds Rock Festival 1999 to date

• Virgin Music Festivals 1997 to date

• The WOMAD Festivals 1996 to date

• The London Fleadh 1994 to date

• The Homelands Music Festivals to date

• The Oasis Finsbury Park Concerts 2002

• The Mayor of London GLA Respect Festivals

• The London Mardi Gras

• The Essential Festivals

• Truckfest and Truckfest South West

And Numerous Corporate and smaller events including the Big Green Gathering

[Seem Silly]

As you might have guessed, the road closure notice had a B ) next to the bit about the speed limits, not a .

[Seem Silly]

George Monbiot's conclusion was actually " it looks pretty odd to me".

[strudders]

As you might have guessed, the road closure notice had a B ) next to the bit about the speed limits, not a .

[Guest Flip]

we know: the BGG made it's road closure application late. This is admitted by BGG. This was BGG cock-up. It gave MDC all the ammunition it needed to shut it down.

If you put a loaded gun in someone's hands then you have to expect them to pull the trigger.

[rabid]

Regarding the condemnation I am throwing your way, I just think maybe, just maybe, your role should be more of a provider of fact rather than opinion, especially at the start of a topic/discussion when all the facts are not known and therefore opinion can be retrospectively seen to be badly defined but still inflict damage to reputations (throw enough sh*t and some will stick etc etc..)..

[smog]

All sounds like a real shame that its all happened this way. Im pretty sure that strudders is right though - its only an advertisement of the temporary traffic order until it is has the seal on it. We have an annual bike race involving a road closure round here and they get plastered everywhere in multiple incarnations in the run up to the event.

[Seem Silly]

Hi Strudders,

I'm afraid I'm just not your bod for detailed info like that. I can only give you the truth as I know it, and for this it's not substantiated or complete. So here it is (and clearly labeled!)

One issue was the lack of fire risk assessments. These were produced and the response was "oh, we haven't see these" - but they were PART OF THE LICENCING APPLICATION!!! OK, fair cop, if they hadn't seen them (and people think hippies are disorganised) they needed to. They disputed that Midland Fire were up to the job. They always have been and the regulations haven't changed. As to the rest I will try to find out more. That's why I labeled it "concerns/spanners", I only know that it happened, way after all the deadlines, not detailed content of the meeting. It will no doubt all come out.

As to the technicalities of formats, you would think that something that said it "hereby makes" a notice and that it will come into effect on a certain date, and that had the legitimate authority's name on it, would be just what it says on the tin. Silly me, but I guess that's what lawyers are for.

Efestivals, have you considered this question of yourselves?

I don't seem to be able to find your equal condemnation of BGG to match the condemnation you're throwing my way. Why is that? It wouldn't be that you're not taking the middle ground that you're claiming would it?

[FunkyDenz]

There is a charge associated with a temporary traffic order. Was the charge levied / cheque cashed? If so then it should be read that the order was granted.

[dandreamweva]

Hi Strudders,

I'm afraid I'm just not your bod for detailed info like that. I can only give you the truth as I know it, and for this it's not substantiated or complete. So here it is (and clearly labeled!)

One issue was the lack of fire risk assessments. These were produced and the response was "oh, we haven't see these" - but they were PART OF THE LICENCING APPLICATION!!! OK, fair cop, if they hadn't seen them (and people think hippies are disorganised) they needed to. They disputed that Midland Fire were up to the job. They always have been and the regulations haven't changed. As to the rest I will try to find out more. That's why I labeled it "concerns/spanners", I only know that it happened, way after all the deadlines, not detailed content of the meeting. It will no doubt all come out.

As to the technicalities of formats, you would think that something that said it "hereby makes" a notice and that it will come into effect on a certain date, and that had the legitimate authority's name on it, would be just what it says on the tin. Silly me, but I guess that's what lawyers are for.

Efestivals, have you considered this question of yourselves?

Where is you "equal condemnation" or criticism of MDC or of anyone other than BGG? And are you really trying to justify what any court in the land would say was manslaughter (firing a loaded gun) as a suitable metaphor for this?

I think Flip and others are just querying if you should be voicing so much opinion under the banner of efestivals and questioning if you have a neutral stance. Hardly condemnation, especially compared to what you have been doling out yourself!

Edited August 4, 2009 by dandreamweva

[Hairyloon]

This may be a silly question, but if the road closure paperwork was only two days late (and the BGG must have known this for at least 2 days short of 8 weeks), then why not simply delay the event by two days?