It started with a stick........

[neilloggie]

Although i agree with some of the things you have said,at the end of the day the lad has committed at least 6 crimes and deserves more than a slap on the wrist.

Not everyone commits crime through desperation or the fact that they are poor,come from a broken home,unemployed etc. A person may shoplift to eat while organised gangs shoplift to order for profit.

You only have to look at the people arrested after the riots and looting in London,Manchester etc to see that not all were feral youths,homeless,poor on the dole,quite a few were from good backgrounds.

The punishment does however have to fit the crime and in this case there was no punishment.

[eFestivals]

I appreciate several of the points you've raised Neil, but in reality, if someone has committed a crime against you, regardless of the severity of the offence, and if you have paid your taxes your whole life on the understanding that it entitles you to help from the police and courts if necessary, then it's pretty disappointing to see the culprit basically walk away free and able to carry on committing similar crimes against others.

So the suggested solution of hard labour given above is out of the window then. Only locking them up will do.

I'm not one for revenge. Shit happens, and that means that sometimes it's going to happen to me. Locking someone up won't change what's happened to me, and it won't change what might happen to others from the same perpetrator - he's going to stop when he's going to stop, not because he might get locked up or is locked up.

As far as I'm concerned, there are certain types of behaviour which are not acceptable. Violence, theft, assault and arson are all among them. The guy who broke into my house may have been stoned, he may have been unemployed or homeless, he may have been skint, he may have had a family to feed. None of these possibilities, or any others I can think of, would stop him being aware that burglary is against the law. Social and economic issues don't change the basic expectations between one human being and another. I don't expect someone to steal from me, any more than I would steal from someone myself. He made a choice to break in to my house, as did the guy who torched James's workshop. They should be held accountable for those choices.

For some people and thru no fault of their own, the list of choices to pick from isn't the same as it is for your and me. So they make different choices.

But anyway, yep, that's one view you've given. Another would be to not bother to waste valuable resources on a solution that isn't a solution (as gets proven since the dawn of time) just so some can sate their want for revenge, and instead use those resources to help address the *real* causes of those crimes. Causes for which every single one of us are responsible for; that we all create the criminals, and that for luck of circumstances, there goes all of us.

[eFestivals]

Not everyone commits crime through desperation or the fact that they are poor,come from a broken home,unemployed etc. A person may shoplift to eat while organised gangs shoplift to order for profit.

True - I'm not trying to suggest that every crim is a crim thru circumstances. There are some real scumbags, but thankfully they're exceedingly small.

The punishment does however have to fit the crime and in this case there was no punishment.

the punishment only has to fit the crime if the want is revenge.

[abdoujaparov]

Although i agree with some of the things you have said,at the end of the day the lad has committed at least 6 crimes and deserves more than a slap on the wrist.

Not everyone commits crime through desperation or the fact that they are poor,come from a broken home,unemployed etc. A person may shoplift to eat while organised gangs shoplift to order for profit.

You only have to look at the people arrested after the riots and looting in London,Manchester etc to see that not all were feral youths,homeless,poor on the dole,quite a few were from good backgrounds.

The punishment does however have to fit the crime and in this case there was no punishment.

[abdoujaparov]

They should be held accountable for those choices.

[Derby_Dave]

would you consider the far higher taxes you'd have to pay 'justice' if kids like that were always banged up? Or would you see that as unjust to you?

Whatever your own answer might be, the very reason why kids like that are not being banged up as the string-em-up brigade might wish is precisely because those same people consider the taxes they'd have to pay for their string-em-up ideas to happen a bigger injustice than a kid like that walking free.

The real injustice here is the inability of the string-em-up brigade to have a fully considered idea before they open their mouth.

[markeee]

To be honest imo part of the problem is an attitude that it's always someone elses fault and it's noone to blame that seems to be accepted in this country now in many walks of life..crime/work/government..noone is ever to blame, it's always because of something else..and their own responsibility is diminished

no responsibility for peoples own actions!

[eFestivals]

and I'm confused as to how anyone paying taxes (or not) has anything to do with the punishments

Punishments cost a lot of money to implement.

The paradox in the justice system is that (as a generalisation) those who wish the justice system to be much harsher in its punishments are the very people who object the strongest to carrying the cost of those punishments.

It's called 'lack of joined up thinking' - which is exactly why they want harsh punishments that have no effect in the first place.

[eFestivals]

To be honest imo part of the problem is an attitude that it's always someone elses fault and it's noone to blame that seems to be accepted in this country now in many walks of life..crime/work/government..noone is ever to blame, it's always because of something else..and their own responsibility is diminished

no responsibility for peoples own actions!

does the lack of responsibility for a person's own actions include all the 'good' people who create the social and economic circumstances that cause crime, as well as the crims?

Or are those people who create the social and economic circumstances that cause crime exempt from having responsibility for their own actions?

Edited November 15, 2012 by eFestivals

[Mardy]

Lack of responsibility?That includes companies not paying tax, right? Politicians fiddling expenses, financial scandals of the last 10 years?

Crime is reprehensible and unacceptable, but that's all of it, not just that done by certain types of people.

[abdoujaparov]

To be honest imo part of the problem is an attitude that it's always someone elses fault and it's noone to blame that seems to be accepted in this country now in many walks of life..crime/work/government..noone is ever to blame, it's always because of something else..and their own responsibility is diminished

no responsibility for peoples own actions!

[mr gumby]

And they have been - they've gone to court and been convicted and sentenced. Being completely ignorant of the circumstances, you might think that the sentence was the wrong one, but you are (with respect) forming that view from a position of complete ignorance of the offenders personal circumstances and the circumstances in which the offences were committed.

[abdoujaparov]

I'm not sure if you've read my previous posts on this thread, or simply picked a comment to disagree with, but if you look back you'll see that one of the crimes I was referring to was the burglary of my own house. True, I don't know all the circumstances of the lad who burned James's workshop down, but I'm fully aware of the details of the crime committed against me. I'm also aware that he had committed dozens of other burglaries over a considerable length of time, been fined and let go each time, and carried on breaking into people's houses. This suggests to me that the measures being taken were having no effect.

I'd further point out that he had no idea of our circumstances before he broke into our house, stole our belongings, caused damage to the building, and left us with the aftermath of not feeling safe and secure in our own home. Do you think he took any time to consider any of that? I seriously doubt it.

[mr gumby]

So the suggested solution of hard labour given above is out of the window then. Only locking them up will do.

I'm not one for revenge. Shit happens, and that means that sometimes it's going to happen to me. Locking someone up won't change what's happened to me, and it won't change what might happen to others from the same perpetrator - he's going to stop when he's going to stop, not because he might get locked up or is locked up.

[eFestivals]

I didn't actually mention hard labour or locking people up. I don't look for revenge either, but just letting someone carry on breaking the law until he 'grows out of it' doesn't give anyone a reason to abide by the law.

If things worked that way, it would also mean that everyone who wasn't committing crime would be thinking to themselves "I would rob my neighbour, but those damned laws mean that I don't", or similar.

I also wonder whether you think this approach would work if applied to all crimes and all criminals.

I don't, I've already posted above to say as much.

Ah, now I understand! It's my fault someone burgled my house, because I'm part of society. Sorry, but that's just ridiculous.

Is it ridiculous?

Some people say that crims should have a proper sense of social responsibility, and not be crims. Other people say that if the ones saying that had a sense of social responsibility themselves then the conditions wouldn't be created in the first place to cause most of the crime that happens. Just a thought.

Blaming 'society' or 'the Tories' is suggesting that the individuals who commit crimes are unable to distinguish between right and wrong.

Presumably you know that speeding is wrong, but you still do it. Or some other petty crime that no one much cares about and which you justify to yourself in some manner as OK in the circumstances - proving that you (not specifically just you, but everyone), no different to those you see as criminals, operates in the same way; the only difference is one of degree.

There's no mileage in the "unable to distinguish between right and wrong" argument. We all know what is right or wrong, and all of us continue to do wrong.

Yes, everyone should be held responsible for their actions.

But only some are (see above).

All actions have consequences. The consequences are not just the good parts a person wants to be associated with; there are also the bad consequences, an inevitable part that comes with the good. We pretend to ourselves that they don't exist, and say it's only those others who have to answer for the consequences of their actions.

[mr gumby]

Okay, Neil. I have a feeling we're probably going to end up having to agree to disagree on this, as you seem determined to absolve those who break the law from any responsibility, whereas I feel it is important that everyone takes responsibility for their own actions. (and by the way, no I don't speed as I don't drive. I don't steal, cheat or lie either, because I feel these actions would be negative in many ways. In short, I take responsibility for my own actions.) This discussion could go round and round in circles for days, though.

The question I would ask is simply this: What, realistically, do you think could be done to change society to improve the current situation? I'm talking practical solutions, not simply 'get rid of the tories' type arguments. How can crime be tackled effectively, without punitive measures? (I'm not talking about just the overall level of crime, as it can be reduced perhaps, but not completely eradicated). One crime at a time, how would you tackle it?

[eFestivals]

Okay, Neil. I have a feeling we're probably going to end up having to agree to disagree on this, as you seem determined to absolve those who break the law from any responsibility,

I've said nothing like that at all.

I've simply put the average petty crim's wrongdoing into its full context, rather than the convenient context which has the 'good' people not take responsibility of their actions as they demand of the crims.

And along with that I've pointed out that the sorts of punishments being suggested are either ones that do not do what people want them to do (they don't work), or are of a cost that people are not prepared to pay.

In short, I take responsibility for my own actions.

OK, I'm happy to accept that you;'re the first perfect person to walk this earth.

One crime at a time, how would you tackle it?

Stop pointlessly banging people up - most of whom have mental health problems, btw - and spend the money instead on tackling the causes of crime.

And high on that list would have to be a reduction in wage inequality (that means the better paid being paid less just as much as it does the lesser paid paid more) - so it ain't gonna happen. Those that have deemed themselves the worthy ones whilst not taking responsibility for their own actions as they want others to will ensure that.

[collydamo]

Bump

How's things with James?

Has he started anything for this years Glastonbury? Is he even going after the time taken to rebuild?

Anyone have any info.

Hope all is well James and you are back in full swing soon.

[guypjfreak]

Bump

How's things with James?

Has he started anything for this years Glastonbury? Is he even going after the time taken to rebuild?

Anyone have any info.

Hope all is well James and you are back in full swing soon.

[Rachie]

Hmm it started with a stick... Never thought it would come to this ^^^ :-/

Sorry to hear about his "sentence" James, but so glad the hear you're feeling better

[guypjfreak]

any news from the magic wood carver ......

the sentence is a farce and thanks to him were not seeing james work ..and hows Brillo ??

[stutheblue]

I'm friends with Brillo on Facebook and he posts occaisonally. I heard he ate his first wasp of the new year the other day. So he seems well. Hope this thread gets going again, one of my favourites

[Sawdusty surfer]

QUOTE (jamesontheverge @ May 31 2010, 10:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Any arty types out there? In a bit of a quandry with the shape of the entrance . The overall shape of the piece is going to be quite eggy and we are not sure that a heart shaped entrance would be too "tacky/corny" Would an egg shaped entrance be better? any opinions would be gratefully received.

and the current resonant note inside it is B flat. It may drop to A once it is sanded.

[Sawdusty surfer]

This!

the mouth idea seems the most straight forward and probably the most effective, possibly making more work for you but as the general shape is already there how about a pair of 'rolling stones/mick jagger' lips with a protruding tongue which almost reaches the ground and forms the seat inside the mouth?

[stutheblue]

That would be great, so appropriate. Get on it straightaway James .