scottish fitba'

[rexclark]

What's your solution then?

[Kowalski]

I don't have an answer but perhaps speaking to the customers would be a start instead of ignoring them.

[Snufflebutt]

I don't have an answer but perhaps speaking to the customers would be a start instead of ignoring them.

[rexclark]

It seems to me 'speaking to the customers' is just another way of saying 'do what the customer says they want' (its not actually what they want though, watch as fans in an 18 team league don't go to boring inconsequential midtable games involving teams that no-one cares about)

They should do what will ensure their cubs survival, not what 5000 fans say ina daft internet survey. The people in charge of football clubs have been portrayed as cold hearted businessmen - they're not. They sure dont get involved in the running of SPL clubs to make money. They are the ultimate 'superfans' - they have, in most cases sunk unimaginable sums into their clubs, money that they'll never see again (and money that in many cases has led to themselves getting into financial difficulty) If they say an 16 or 18 team league is unworkable, then I'll take their opinion over a load of fans who havent looked into the issue closely enough.

[Snufflebutt]

Scottish football is f**ked, plain and simple. There is no easy answer to how we can fix it and there is no quick fix but the fans, the directors and the organisers need to sit down and iscuss what they think is the way forward, finacially and for the fans. there must be a middle ground where everyone can find a compromise.

[Kowalski]

Oh and attendances are up as well on those halcyon 18 team league days

[ampersand]

Some pretty terrible crowds yesterday:

[Kowalski]

well they would be when c**ts take up free hospitality!

[Snufflebutt]

Some pretty terrible crowds yesterday:

Pittodrie: 6918

Tannadice: 4041

New Douglas Park: 1054

Easter Road: 6056

Caledonian Stadium: 2808

Links Park: 1030

New St Mirren Park: 2312

[Kowalski]

The 14 team idea with the strange split might be back on...

The Scottish Premier League has unwittingly extended the pantomime season. And to the division's credit, it is quite a feat to come up with a reconstruction plan which enrages so many people in one fell swoop.

If the SPL's chairman and chief executive – more of their errant ways to come later – had their way, a vote ratifying the move from 12 to 10 top-flight teams would take place on 17 January. Within the past four days, that prospect has become as likely as segregation being abolished at Old Firm games.

The topic of how successfully to reform Scotland's top flight was a rather dull one until this week. Details of talks held at Hampden Park between representatives of all 12 current SPL members have gradually leaked out, leaving supporters somewhere between baffled and angry.

Through it all, Neil Doncaster, the SPL's chief executive, has maintained a stunningly bullish stance over the likelihood of 10 teams making up the league from the onset of season 2012-13. Doncaster is either arrogant, blind to the opinions of his own member clubs or trying desperately to adopt a strong public persona in the face of widespread discontent.

Supporters don't want a 10-team league, that much has been made abundantly clear. Of a Supporters Direct survey, 88% said as much. Therefore, if Doncaster ever attempts to point out that the SPL take the views of fans into realistic consideration, onlookers can be forgiven a smile.

What is correct is that a move to 16 or 18 teams is too financially damaging – owing to the television value of Old Firm games – to be considered. However, a retention of 12 teams, or a jump to 14, are perfectly valid.

It remains surprising that so many people apparently believe the basic make-up of the SPL is so pertinent to the country's current and many football problems. The reality is, and has been for a considerable time now, that the content of the league is the key issue, not its size. Supporters continue to drift away, leaving the depressing sight of empty stadiums, because of overpriced, poor fare, not how many teams form leagues.

But since this theme appears no sign of disappearing, it must be addressed. Four clubs – Hearts, Inverness, Dundee United and Kilmarnock – have made their reservations over a 10-team scenario perfectly clear this week. And with good reason; here the SPL is asking for support over a format which would see promotion and relegation play-offs thereby offering a 33.3% chance of demotion. Clubs, already operating in a tight financial environment, would be writing suicide notes by supporting it. There is no evidence at all that a 10-side league would improve standards. In fact, evidence points to the contrary given the increase of a fear factor.

David Longmuir, the head of the Scottish Football League, claimed with a straight face that the biggest issue he faces just now relates to the reschedule of postponed games. If the SPL has its way, the SFL will either cease to exist or radically change in format.

Play-offs may work in England but in leagues more than double the size of what the SPL wants to introduce. They are unnecessary north of the border and a blatant attempt to raise guaranteed end-of-season cash; a simple two-up, two-down system should be adopted. With the greatest of respect, it is debatable how much monetary value there would be in, for example, a Hamilton v Ross County play-off anyway.

A plan to increase the size of the SPL to 14 teams, heavily mooted to clubs as well as the media, mysteriously disappeared around the time that Henry McLeish published his hard-hitting review of Scottish football. The cause for that should be fully explained because the 14-team format was perfectly reasonable to many.

The recommendation which has been put forward stems from a six-team SPL strategy group. There is, in the words of the league chairman Ralph Topping, "no Plan B". Having failed to convene a meeting between October and January, Plan A was haphazardly put before the other six teams a fortnight before an 11-1 vote was required to see it through.

Topping, in yet another bizarre public utterance, earlier said a successful vote was "odds on". This man has reached a prominent position within a British bookmaking firm, as well. Now, he and Doncaster must be seeking a way to delay that vote, or face huge embarrassment. The Scottish Football Association's fresh performance and youth league models cannot be fully implemented until this unseemly mess is sorted out.

Motherwell are known to be wavering and partly of a mind to support the "rebel" four clubs. St Mirren, a member of the strategy group, haven't exactly poured cold water on its proposals but made a public statement yesterday which at least illustrated they are unconvinced.

At Monday's meeting, the Rangers chief executive, Martin Bain, said those members of the strategy group should fully endorse its findings and keep individual opinions to one side. That was contested at the time by Stewart Gilmour, the St Mirren chairman.

The same meeting heard how the value of television deals was likely to improve with a move to 10 teams. No figures were available to back this up. Apart from the fact it would be a bizarre negotiating tactic in any case, are we really to expect that broadcasters would commit to handing over more cash for a product which is more widely unpopular than what exists already?

The blunt truth is that Scottish football is doing well to hold on to the commercial revenue it already has. Suggestions that a reshaping of one or all divisions will prompt a vast influx of cash have no foundation in economic reality.

One possible way to pacify those who object to cutting the SPL's size would be to alter revenue distribution. As things stand, the top two clubs collect 32% of commercial income. The possibility of splitting some of that, in handing out a mere £125,000 extra per club, was mooted on Monday but swiftly swatted aside. The Old Firm can point back to the McLeish report, which states that 56% of SPL crowds over the last decade were generated by Rangers and Celtic alone, as a reference point of their value.

During Monday's talks Topping reminded clubs of the work Doncaster has done since moving into his role and laid out how the chief executive's own position was closely linked to reform. That was perceived by many as a veiled warning to support these fundamentally flawed reconstruction plans. Given what a mess this episode has turned into, Topping's words may come back to haunt him.

[ampersand]

It seems to me 'speaking to the customers' is just another way of saying 'do what the customer says they want' (its not actually what they want though, watch as fans in an 18 team league don't go to boring inconsequential midtable games involving teams that no-one cares about)

[Kowalski]

just thought about this, i take it you are a figure for that attendance?

[Snufflebutt]

you keep going on about meaningless games that no-one cares about. england has a 20 team league. more than halfway into the season, 8 points seperates 8-20. so games between lots of these clubs are far from meaningless. don't see why the same wouldn't happen in scotland with the teams more evenly matched.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Snufflebutt

[ampersand]

yeah it would help youth flourish as there would be less chance of relegation as there is now. i reckon it would still be exciting, as the premiership is proving. granted, there are more rewards in england, but there's still prize money to play for. and i don't see attendances dropping. people would still buy their season tickets. course they would, so your dundee v st mirren would still have as healthy a crowd as an aberdeen v st mirren at the minute. for me anyway.

14 team split is an utter joke. even bigger than the 2x10 and regionals.

[rexclark]

14 teams sounds plausible. Far better than 10 anyway.

[Kowalski]

14 teams sounds plausible. Far better than 10 anyway.

[Paul ™]

Scottish Cup fifth round draw:

Aberdeen v Montrose or Dunfermline

Inverness v Morton or Airdrie

Hamilton v Dundee United or Ross County

Stenhousemuir or Threave Rovers or Stranraer v Motherwell

East Stirling or Buckie v Queen of the South or Brechin

Rangers v Celtic

Hibernian or Ayr v St Mirren or Peterhead

Hearts or St Johnstone v Falkirk or Partick Thistle

Ties to be played weekend of February 5-6.

[ampersand]

potential buckie v brechin the tie of the round then?

[Paul ™]

potential buckie v brechin the tie of the round then?

[ampersand]

Well if yer a neutral cause your team was knocked out in the 3rd round by a 3rd division then possibly

[fraser_k]

That ruins the theory that the Old Firm never get paired in the early rounds of the cup.

I heard there was only 13,000 at ibrox last night, although Broomloan Stand was closed as they haven't finished disinfectanting it yet.

[Paul ™]

That ruins the theory that the Old Firm never get paired in the early rounds of the cup.

I heard there was only 13,000 at ibrox last night, although Broomloan Stand was closed as they haven't finished disinfectanting it yet.

[ampersand]

That ruins the theory that the Old Firm never get paired in the early rounds of the cup.

I heard there was only 13,000 at ibrox last night, although Broomloan Stand was closed as they haven't finished disinfectanting it yet.

[Kowalski]

That'll be the last time anyone from outside the SFA gets near the draw for the Scottish Cup again.

Well done Biffy!

[Paul ™]

Lennons touchline ban tripled LOL