Festival Childcare

[oafc0000]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...t-arts-10659250

Now I quite like the idea if you are using it for a couple of hours for a break and the kid is up for it. Sounds like it could be fun for the kids to have a bit of fun with other kids and it gives the adults a break.

I don't think its a good idea for parents to bugger off getting pissed all day though...

Neil dosen't sound keen

If they are caught drinking they will be escorted off the site.

Edited July 16, 2010 by oafc0000

[rabid]

Neil dosen't sound keen

[Rufus Gwertigan]

"To take them and then put them second by palming them off on someone else just doesn't feel right."

While I agree with this in principle I don't see a problem in using the service for a 4 hour session once over a long weekend. Gives the kids a break from the parents just as much as the other way round.

[oafc0000]

I think there is a difference between letting your kids play supervised with other kids for a couple of hours while mum and dad spend a little of bit of time together and just leaving your kids to run a mock...

I wouldn't feel bad or guilty about doing it... Glastonbury is a 7 day festival now, I don't think its a terrible thing to do in that context...

I would find it a bit weird at a two or three day festival mind...

I suppose I am thinking from the Glastonbury point of view... I wouldn't take my kids to somewhere like V... and they are the only two I have been too...

[rabid]

sorry

[oafc0000]

Glastonbury is 7 days...?

[oafc0000]

.

Edited July 19, 2010 by oafc0000

[oafc0000]

you could...

but yea, why not (childcare). If it's ok to have similar facilities elsewhere, then I don't see any problem.

Not sure what Neil's problem with it is...

having said that, whenever we've tried to leave our kids anywhere (like this), the look of "why are you leaving me with these strangers" in their eyes always made us relent in the end...

maybe we're too protective..?

Edited July 19, 2010 by oafc0000

[oafc0000]

when I said "maybe we're too protective..?", I literally meant me and my wife (not the general 'we').... I often think we might have been a little over protective, but who's to say? They turned out lovely enough.

[Josie's Cat]

It's evolution. You have to feel protective/not want to leave the little blighters with other people, so they can get the best chance of draining you of all your resources and growing up strong and kitted up with cash.

I read somewhere that adopted children even develop similar facial features/expressions so their adopted parents will feel a sense of bonding and want to protect them.

Children are evil.

[dakyras]

[insert crude joke about knowing about these 4 responsible men who look after young people at festivals here]

[beLIEveR]

"To take them and then put them second by palming them off on someone else just doesn't feel right."

While I agree with this in principle I don't see a problem in using the service for a 4 hour session once over a long weekend. Gives the kids a break from the parents just as much as the other way round.

[beLIEveR]

really? I'm curious to know how that conclusion is reached. I'm sure it's the case some of the time, but I'd bet that it's the minority of cases.

[beLIEveR]

would the odd ocassion be "all too often" for you then?

[beLIEveR]

Okay.

I'll take lectures on the "big bad world" from a man that managed to convince the finest minds in this country's public sector that a bloodthirsty arab could kill us all in 45 minutes, and that the best way to neutralise the situation was to declare war.

[eFestivals]

really? I'm curious to know how that conclusion is reached. I'm sure it's the case some of the time, but I'd bet that it's the minority of cases. Taking any children isn't an easy option. For us, we just do things together, always with the kids needs in mind. When they were young we'd spend most of the time in the kids fields... after not long, they'd be asking, "aren't we going to see any music?"

I don't doubt that there's responsible parents at festivals.

But at the same time I know **FOR CERTAIN** that there's many that aren't. Part of what the Beeb chose not to include from what I said to them was the fact that when I ran the under-two's toy tent at Glastonbury, more than 1 in 5 parents simply dumped their kid in that tent and walked away - they didn't even bother to ask if someone would be looking after the kid(s) they dumped (tho if they had asked, they'd have been told "no - it's not a babysitting service". Even some that did ask still tried to leave their kid.).

If a parent uses a nursery or child-minder, I'd expect them to find out a little about the quality of care offered by that service before placing their kid there.

If a parent used the sort of "play facility" that can be found at bowling alleys and the like, they at least know that it's a facility that is regularly assessed for suitability by the authorities, and where what they do isn't changed hugely from day to day. They'd also have an amount of confidence that the staff manning that facility today are likely to be mostly the same staff as yesterday, last week, last year, and will be mostly the same staff tomorrow, next week and next year - and from all of that, there's by default an amount of accountability.

While I don't doubt that these festival facilities are run with the best intentions (tho with one eye on the extremely high profit margins available ), there is not the opportunity to properly assess the facilities that are on offer today, and the different facilities tomorrow - either by a parent or by local authorities. While staff might well be (or definitely are?) CRB vetted, there is not the continuity of staff or local authority monitoring that exists with any permanent facility. And anyway, CRB checking only says "this person is thought to be reputable up to today", while offering no guarantees on suitability.

But added with all of that is the simple fact that it encourages poor parenting. No longer does a parent have to consider how they might have to moderate their behaviour if they take their kid with them to a festival, they don't have to care any more. "I can dump kid at babysitting service and go off and have a good time without having to worry about my kid's welfare" becomes the only thought necessary, and that attitude then gains a greater impact onto how that kid is treated elsewhere.

I have no problem with parents taking kids to festivals - in fact, I'd encourage it. But if you want to enjoy a festival with your kid then do just that - don't take them and then dump them, putting your own good time as the priority.

[eFestivals]

If a festival, or any event, provides a facility for looking after your kids, then it's no more 'dumping' than it is anywhere else (like a train station, IKEA, or wherever), is it?

How is it encouraging bad parenting? Is it bad parenting going out for an evening and leaving your kid with a babysitter? If the parent goes off and gets arse-holed so they aren't capable of looking after their kid later, then that person is already not the best of parents, and is probably just as likely to behave in such a way whether there's any facilities to look after kids or not.

At £48 a go though...

If you're going out for an evening, you have to find suitable childcare before you know you're able to do it. So the kid comes first.

If you're going to a festival and taking your child and going to be fully caring for them, then you're putting the child first.

If you're taking your child to a festival but looking to palm them off on someone else so that you can enjoy yourself to the max, you're not putting your child first.

It's simply this angle that offends me - the child is being put 2nd to that parent's fun. And then around that angle are all the other factors, that the childcare your placing them in is not checked out to your satisfaction (because it's not possible to, with it being a transient thing) in the way most parents would be likely to insist on for any other childcare they might use.

But maybe it's just me. I wouldn't dream of leaving my child in the care of people I don't know and whose reputation I'm not able to know, and where the chance of accountability (and even the reporting of any problems) is hugely lower than in more normal child-care facilities. To me, it smacks only of being about the parents and how caring for their kids might spoil their fun. Well, boo-hoo - you have kids: do your best for them, don't put them second.

[oafc0000]

If you're going out for an evening, you have to find suitable childcare before you know you're able to do it. So the kid comes first.

If you're going to a festival and taking your child and going to be fully caring for them, then you're putting the child first.

If you're taking your child to a festival but looking to palm them off on someone else so that you can enjoy yourself to the max, you're not putting your child first.

It's simply this angle that offends me - the child is being put 2nd to that parent's fun. And then around that angle are all the other factors, that the childcare your placing them in is not checked out to your satisfaction (because it's not possible to, with it being a transient thing) in the way most parents would be likely to insist on for any other childcare they might use.

But maybe it's just me. I wouldn't dream of leaving my child in the care of people I don't know and whose reputation I'm not able to know, and where the chance of accountability (and even the reporting of any problems) is hugely lower than in more normal child-care facilities. To me, it smacks only of being about the parents and how caring for their kids might spoil their fun. Well, boo-hoo - you have kids: do your best for them, don't put them second.

[eFestivals]

I am not convinced there isn't a third option where a festival runs accountable and assessed child care... Of course, as Neil says though, I would certainly check the care providers out before leaving my kid with them and if it wasn't possible to assure myself they were suitable then I would not leave my child with them.

The problems as I see them are these...

It is - in theory - "accountable and assessed child care". If the providers are operating inside the law (and I've no reason to believe that they're not) then the staff will be CRB checked and the facility will have been cleared by the relevant local authorities.

BUT ..... unlike just about any other child care facility it's a transient thing. It might not be the same staff at each event, and so the quality of the child care will vary with those variances in staff. There's no opportunity for the facility to build up a solid reputation, because of that variance in staff (even if it uses all of the same staff for the events it covers this year, it's unlikely to use the exact same personnel next summer).

There's also no opportunity for any assessment of its facilities in a consistent manner, as the local authority staff that will check it will be different in each local authority area, with differences in their views but with pressure to conform to the adequate or better assessment given by other authorities.

And finally ... because it's a here-today but gone tomorrow operation by its nature, then how sure can any parent be that any concerns people might have about the care on offer is being properly reported and addressed? If the nursery down the road is crap then most people would want to bring that to someone's attention, but the same doesn't apply to anything like the same extent with something transient.

I wouldn't place my child in the care of any opened-today nursery where I was unable to make what I felt were adequate checks on the reputations of the people running it, and where they might not care about any comeback on their reputation because they'll have shut down and moved on elsewhere in a few days time.

Any parent can take on such concerns themselves and know that they're doing all they possibly can do to ensure their child's safety, or they can offload those concerns to others such as local authorities .... but as we all should know by now from cases such as Baby P, those authorities don't always do what they should be doing to best protect children, and so the only way we can satisfy our own concerns is to take on that responsibility for ourselves. With something so transient, the only possible way to know is by watching how your child is cared for yourself, which negates the very benefit such a service is trying to offer.

The idea isn't one that I find bad in itself, but the practicalities of its operation in reality is waaaay beyond what I'd be prepared to accept as a parent myself.... unless I was taking the view that those concerns can be put aside just because I'm at a festival (with its untrue subtext of "everyone is nice at a festival, maaaan"), and that it's alright because I want to go off and have some fun.

[eFestivals]

it's no more 'palming off' if a facility is there, just as it might be at a shopping centre or wherever.

that's simply not true.

If you use a facility like that, then you know that it should be there tomorrow, next week, next year - and so any comeback you or others might have will be (or at least should be) properly addressed.

With a festival child care thing, the local authority won't give too much of a shit about any complaint, because by the time it's on someone's desk it's no longer a child care facility in their area - they'll have things that are of more importance to them to deal with as a part of their stupidly over-long workload than to chase down people living perhaps hundreds of miles away about a facility that no longer exists and only existed for a few days.

It's also the case that a parent is likely to care less about reporting any issue, because they'll know it won't be there to cause similar problems for others in the next day or two.

But all that aside, I wouldn't use a shopping centre facility any more than I would a festival one. I want my child cared for by people I've checked out to some extent, and not by a bunch of randoms I know nothing about. I know that not all parents that that view, but I also know that many parents do.

Adults leave their kids in care of people they don't know all the time, sometimes out of choice, more often than not out of necessity.

Leaving a kid at a festival child-care facility would be necessity only in very exceptional circumstances. That's a part of my issue.

but then, with these awful stories of the rape incidents, who knows ???

Exactly. The only way to do the best that you can is to do the best that you can. I can't see how festival child care will ever fit with that (unless perhaps a festival worker of some kind).

Many years ago, there was a regular poster on here who went and stayed at various efesters houses, and was alone with their kids at times. It turned out he already had a conviction for child porn, which was discovered when he got a further conviction which was in the papers. Needless to say, the people involved were horrified at the person they'd rather carelessly exposed their kids to (tho as far as I'm aware, he always behaved himself with them - luckily). The point is that you simply can't know these sorts of things until it's perhaps too late. The fewer opportunities given, the safer your kids will be.

Anyway, there's a difference between the necessities of getting thru life - which is (for example) putting your child into daily care so that you can work - and doing things for your own convenience. Festival child care is, from where I'm sat, about what's convenient for the parent and not what's good or necessary for the child.

[gratedenini]

I find some of these replies a bit clinical and very much B&W ---and fair enough--opinions,beliefs,morals,fears etc etc are all part of being the parent that you are.

Personally--- I`m a trusting person...for example..the other week we were out having a picnic at a local spot--rope swing etc etc...small river.

King Larmer made friends with some kids...and he had been pestering me to go down to the stream bit--but cos I had Hendrix--it was a bit of an arse on.

His new friends Mum said "I`ll take him down--- I`m going with mine"

Now, I didnt hesitate for a second...nothing flashed through my mind,like it might do with some responders here , saying "Whoa...she`s gonna nonce him and lash him with stinging nettles whilst dancing naked round a heap of twigs"

Its like err--how yer live--like a mindset. Is it a calculated gamble? I dont know---but I`m happy with what i see as my boundaries.

We just back from Larmer Tree... both Lar and H potter around close by to the caravan and we encourage interaction with our fellow festies.... I think thats great...it gives them convidence imo. I also seen plenty of kids who were on those f**kin leashes--like a harness thing..I hate em.

I felt it safe enough for the youngest to play with a group of other kids of the same age in the festival itself whilst i stood some distance away. The eldest (11) is allowed to wander and return every 20mins.

This does 2 things for us--firstly---it gives the kids confidence--to meet new people and interact and also allows us to at least have some sort of conversation together without the usual constant distraction of the kids wants and needs.

We are great believers in that parents need time away from kids.

If there are activities at fests for kids---they should be encouraged to participate--but i wholly agree that there must be some parents who dump em in there and piss off.

At the end of the day---its up to us as individuals to choose what we feel is the right path... our times at fests now is a very different experience to before we had kids. I do miss the wanton abandon of getting totally f**ked and falling over etc... but the highlight of last weekend was the family doing country dancing together (i was f**ked).

den

[oafc0000]

I find some of these replies a bit clinical and very much B&W ---and fair enough--opinions,beliefs,morals,fears etc etc are all part of being the parent that you are.

Personally--- I`m a trusting person...for example..the other week we were out having a picnic at a local spot--rope swing etc etc...small river.

King Larmer made friends with some kids...and he had been pestering me to go down to the stream bit--but cos I had Hendrix--it was a bit of an arse on.

His new friends Mum said "I`ll take him down--- I`m going with mine"

Now, I didnt hesitate for a second...nothing flashed through my mind,like it might do with some responders here , saying "Whoa...she`s gonna nonce him and lash him with stinging nettles whilst dancing naked round a heap of twigs"

Its like err--how yer live--like a mindset. Is it a calculated gamble? I dont know---but I`m happy with what i see as my boundaries.

We just back from Larmer Tree... both Lar and H potter around close by to the caravan and we encourage interaction with our fellow festies.... I think thats great...it gives them convidence imo. I also seen plenty of kids who were on those f**kin leashes--like a harness thing..I hate em.

I felt it safe enough for the youngest to play with a group of other kids of the same age in the festival itself whilst i stood some distance away. The eldest (11) is allowed to wander and return every 20mins.

This does 2 things for us--firstly---it gives the kids confidence--to meet new people and interact and also allows us to at least have some sort of conversation together without the usual constant distraction of the kids wants and needs.

We are great believers in that parents need time away from kids.

If there are activities at fests for kids---they should be encouraged to participate--but i wholly agree that there must be some parents who dump em in there and piss off.

At the end of the day---its up to us as individuals to choose what we feel is the right path... our times at fests now is a very different experience to before we had kids. I do miss the wanton abandon of getting totally f**ked and falling over etc... but the highlight of last weekend was the family doing country dancing together (i was f**ked).

den

Edited July 21, 2010 by oafc0000

[philipsteak]

Very much agree on your feelings...

I have only just started to realise how being a kid is so much different now. There is hardly any kids playing in the streets any more. All being transported around in armoured plated 4x4, play dates are by appointment only and we wonder why kids are developing obesity problems etc... and why ? In case the VERY unlikely incident that they will come across some who will adducted and murder them ? It runs along the same lines of people saying girls should now look over their shoulders while walking around music festivals just in case that 1% of nutter comes across your path. We are all just scared shitless these days. No doubt the media plays a part in this but people need to frecking chill a little

I want my little girls to have a active childhood like I had. I want her to get on her bike and cycle to her friends / school. But because every other parent have stopped doing it she will now be one of the few doing it, hence making that 1% a heck of lot more likely... and so I become part of the madness...and I won't allow it...arrrgghhhh

I don't know, just think its all very shitty on the kids... Feels like we are keeping them prisoners based on such little real risk...

[oafc0000]

I dont want to get all "in my day" about this, but yeah, in summer my parents were lucky if they saw me for an hour a day. Actually, I'll rephrase that. My parents were lucky. They only saw me for an hour a day!