TUC protests

[Pogues Mcgogues]

Erm, you started the discussion.

From what you've said it sounds to me like they're just planning to protest out of habit.

[Pogues Mcgogues]

Pogo's posts about anything political remind me of every teenage college student I met who thinks because they shout "facists", "anarachy" and "down with thatcher" they are being political.

[llcoolphil]

No. You can tell me how they are first, so I can respond to your accusations.

[Pogues Mcgogues]

Because the TUC dont campaign for its members to receive the full value of their labour. It isn't a controversial opinion.

[jump]

I stopped going on marches arranged by Trots a very long time ago.

You can also ask my eco-anarchist friend just how much I am not an anarchist and would never shout the awful word!

[Pogues Mcgogues]

I should hope so too, but I meant you have that general clueless-ness when you talk about politics that I would associate with them.

[jump]

Still, at least they do more than simply sit at home typing away on a keyboard!

[Pogues Mcgogues]

That's because some people aren't unemployed, living with their parents, no girlfriend and have to pay back their uni fees's and therefore don't need to bitch and whinge.

[llcoolphil]

You realy do chat shite sometimes!

[Pogues Mcgogues]

Explain please

[llcoolphil]

I'd need more detail on what you actualy mean specifically other than just rhetorical comments.

[Pogues Mcgogues]

Ive already explained it but I'll do it in simple language for you. For the capitalist system to contnue, workers need to be paid less than the full value of their labour in order for businesses to make profit. Trades Unions always negotiate settlements that are below the full value of a worker's labour, thus perpetuating the capitalist system. I showed you the old clause 4 iv of the labour party constitution early last week. This really is basics pogo.

[llcoolphil]

Nonsense. Where as certain trade unions are guilty of not delivering decent wage levels when negiotiating, for instance USDAW, the other factors have to be looked at as well [such as there anti-militancy due to numbers and type of work].

However, to suggest that guys like Bob Crow go into wage negiotiation with the intention of screwing over the workers is appaling! Trade Unions get the best out of what's available because TU's are only part of the fight. The fight for living wages and such is not for TU's but for parliament. It is the TU's who make sure the workers don't get screwed over to what they are entitled to and don't fall foul to greed by company top ranks.

If your argument was actualy correct a Trade Union would never strike.

You can also note I used an example of a TU leader who is not a Labour fan.

Edited September 12, 2010 by llcoolphil

[Pogues Mcgogues]

Pogo nothing I have said is nonsense. This post, however, quite clearly shows you have no idea of the basic relationship between an employee and an employer under capitalism. But then, you are a member of and campaign for a capitalist party but think ot otherwise. Im not expressing an opinion here, I am giving you a factual account of capitals relationship with profit. If I am paid the full value of my labour, how can the product of that labour then be sold for a profit?

[llcoolphil]

I've told you I am mostly socialist. I have however, no problem with people making money as long as they do not punish the worker in order to do so.

[ampersand]

So you accept a worker not to be paid the full value of their labour and, therefore, support capitalism.

[llcoolphil]

how can you not be fair to workers and make a profit like pogo says?

how is paying a tesco worker say £6 an hour not full value? they are doing uneducated work that a trained monkey could do (no offence katster)

[lost]

Because the value of that wor is worth more.

Say I earn £6 for an hours work at Tesco, but in terms of profit to Tesco that work is worth £6.50, I have been underpaid the value of that work by 50p. It's an entirely factual account of how working arrangements are organised in the western world (itwould actually be worth something like £6.000000001 to Tesco)under capitalism and it's a point aimed directly at pogo who claims to be against the capitalist system by suggesting he is serious about socialism. Im simply pointing out to him that under the TUC, capitalism is encouraged to flourish. It isn't an opinion, it's an entirely factual account.

[llcoolphil]

using the same logic, as British Airways are making a loss the unions should be pushing for lower wages then as the workers labour value is set too high?

[Pogues Mcgogues]

As long as a company pays the worker enough to live on (a living wage) I have no complaint on a company making profit. Companies make profit. Co-operatives make profit. Fair trade organisations make profit. As long as the worker is not abused.

[llcoolphil]

As long as a company pays the worker enough to live on (a living wage) I have no complaint on a company making profit. Companies make profit. Co-operatives make profit. Fair trade organisations make profit. As long as the worker is not abused.

[Pogues Mcgogues]

So not that serious about socialism then.

Who decides what a living wage is? What do you think constitutes a living wage? Enough so you aren't starving? Enough to make life comfortable? Enough to leave your kids a massive inheritance? The workers get a living wage whilst those that own the means of production continue to make massive profits and leave it for the next generation to inherit and perpetuate the whole system.

Im not sure which bit of mostly socialist that comes under.

[Steve P]

how can you not be fair to workers and make a profit like pogo says?

how is paying a tesco worker say £6 an hour not full value? they are doing uneducated work that a trained monkey could do (no offence katster)

[Pogues Mcgogues]

Also, I'm sure Tesco's pay more than £6. Is it not £6.50? Which is more than smaller supermarkets.

[Kowalski]

I'm not sure we'd be having these protests at the cuts if we hadn't spent so much money on the invasion of Iraq.