Taking to the streets on March 26th - Cuts protest

[TalkShow Bob]

I can't decide what to do (or even think...!!??) about AV. It feels like a small step forward, but quite a few back

[TheGayTent]

I'd like to grant Scotland and Wales full independence.

Then you can choose whatever form of PR you like...

[eFestivals]

I'd like to grant Scotland and Wales full independence.

Then you can choose whatever form of PR you like...

In a democracy, independence or not is the choice of those affected. It's not yours or anyone else's to 'grant'.

In a democracy, the choice of electoral system is the choice of the electorate and not those who are elected. What is it about giving the people that choice which has Dave Moron running scared?

At the end of the day, the attitudes of Dave Moron and yourself is the standard patronising bollocks of the tories, which (while talking of the left of that time) Orwell laid out so well in Animal Farm - all are equal, but some are more equal than others.

[llcoolphil]

I was undecided but two things changed my mind. Firstly I was talking to my Grandad about it and he was suprised I was undecided, he had assumed I would be all for it, he said 'im pritty sure as the Torys are against it, it must be good for me.' Secondly its a point building on Neils point - the left have allways had a kicking from the right because they are united and we are devided. This will strip a large amount of that power from the right and as long as the left can face up to the need unite we can take massive advantage of this.

[llcoolphil]

Elections are meant to be the choice of the people. The fact that Dave Moron won't allow the people to make that free choice exposes him as anti-democratic.

[eFestivals]

Not to mention the idiocy of the lib dems not getting it in the coalition agreement in the first place

It depends how you look at it I guess.

From what I've read about the coalition negotiations, this was a make or break issue for the tories - they simply wouldn't make an agreement with the LibDims if a referendum on PR was insisted on.

So while I'm surprised that the LibDims were prepared to compromise over what has been one of their longest standing policies, which has been a big vote catcher for them, and which (from numerous opinion polls) seems to be the wish of the majority of this country, I'm ultimately glad that they did.

Because it remains the case that no coalition agreement would have meant a further election, and that further election would have undoubtedly resulted in a tory majority. The tories restrained by the LibDims - even if just a little - is far better for this country than the tories unrestrained.

It's worth remembering that despite the many and often large faults of the LibDims, it's the tories who are the real scum.

[llcoolphil]

Because it remains the case that no coalition agreement would have meant a further election,

[eFestivals]

I think Camoron would have tried to run a minority government first and if he failed to get a budget through called an election. To get a budget through would have been to constrain the tories as a minority government more than a five year coalition agreement (and a minority government budget would have been hugely unpopular amongst his own ranks because of the compromises involved). If he'd failed to get a budget through, I fancy the men in grey suits would have come knocking on the door before he got chance for another election failure - and if that happened, the party would undouctedly have lurched right and who knows what that might have done to popularity

I get why you've concluded that but would have thought that, as you say, with a minority govt being unpopular with tory MPs, they'd have pushed for another election - because every indicator suggested they'd have won clearly if it had happened.

Which of course comes back to the stupidity of the electorate - voting for a "leader" rather than for what they'd do as that leader.

[worm]

I can see the right but this left that needs to unite - where is it?

Edited April 7, 2011 by worm

[TheGayTent]

Blah blah blah

[eFestivals]

Do you ever take your head out your arse?

It was quite clearly tongue in cheek.

You might think it was clear, but it's very standard for tories to spout anti-democratic drivel. I simply assumed you were towing the party line.

OK, so I got you wrong. Is your glorious leader Dave Moron joking too?

[TalkShow Bob]

I get why you've concluded that but would have thought that, as you say, with a minority govt being unpopular with tory MPs, they'd have pushed for another election - because every indicator suggested they'd have won clearly if it had happened.

Which of course comes back to the stupidity of the electorate - voting for a "leader" rather than for what they'd do as that leader.

[TalkShow Bob]

I can see the right but this left that needs to unite - where is it? The greens have some good ideas (apart from nuclear energy which kind of rules them out) But choosing between the three main parties is like choosing what flavour jelly you want - different colours but still just jelly

[worm]

Well instead of left I meant progressive. The center left of the Libdems and the left of the Labour party. Hopefully with the new management well see them moving even more to the left.

[TalkShow Bob]

Wouldn't the left of the labour party be pretty far left and the centre left of the LibDem party be fairly central?

[worm]

Hummm not nessaserly. I think it depends on who you take ie the parlementry parties or the whole party, also its quite hard to see exactly where the Labour party are now. But for a while, under the last Labour government, the LibDems felt like proper Social Democrats and the Labour party felt very centralist.

Nowerdays the lib dems are feeling quite right wing but the supporters and members that I know are still fairly Social Democrats. But now the parlementry party seems more right wing than the members at large.

[rabid]

Who's on first?

[TalkShow Bob]

And what if social democrats become more left or right wing? Got yourself a whole world of pain trying to structure this shit then.

And where the hell is the right and left if the right parties are going left and the left parties are going right?

[worm]

I was talking about social democrat as a political position not as the SDP elliment of the lib dems.

[llcoolphil]

Well instead of left I meant progressive. The center left of the Libdems and the left of the Labour party. Hopefully with the new management well see them moving even more to the left.

[llcoolphil]

I know. So what if that position becomes more left or right, just as the left position of the labour party and the centre of the LibDems had?

[worm]

How would we tell?

[worm]

Where has the progressive outcry been that internships have absolutely f*ck all to do with social mobility?

[llcoolphil]

Or indeed, the fact.

[TalkShow Bob]

I know. So what if that position becomes more left or right, just as the left position of the labour party and the centre of the LibDems had?