Depression - TalkSport Diagnosis

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

Sorry to rant/vent/whatever, just this thread couldn't be more relevant to me right now.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

I'm very sociable. In fact, some of the most socially engaging people I know are introverted. They just tend to understand what it is that they're doing, is all.

[worm]

Unfortunately I'm introverted and have not got a clue what I am doing! Never have really. I agree that other introverted people can be very engaging once the genie's out of the bottle (this is usually assisted by alcohol) as it were. That said, I'm sure there are some very engaging extroverts too. I don't think you can split the 'camps' in two that way.

Edited August 7, 2012 by worm

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

You can to an extent. It's on a flowing scale, rather than a classification though. Have you ever had an introversion/extroverion personality test? They're rather enlightening. Unless you're an extrovert and then they're enlightenment givers.

I do it to be elightened (introversion). I do it because it enlightens (extroversion). I say this because I believe it's right (introversion). I say this to get the desired response (extroversion).

The introvert does it because of what it is, not because of the outcome. An extrovert doesn't care what it is, they do it for the outcome.

That's the fundamental difference.

[worm]

I think it's now official worm - you've lost me. I'm going to have to chew those words over in my mind a little bit more, but highly suspect I'm not going to get it.

One thing though - extroverts and introverts can change roles from time to time. I can become extrovert if I shovel enough beers down me, for example. An extrovert such as a musical pop star can become introverted with nerves before a show. There will obviously be too many examples to list here, but those examples show that the 'science' behind classifying someobody as an introvert or extrovert is essentially flawed. people can be both. Just depends what time of the day you catch them and where they are at , at that particular time.

Edited August 8, 2012 by worm

[eFestivals]

Again, this is because psychological forces cannot be healed.

nope, it's simply because there's no meaningful measure.

So in the absence of that, people who want to believe themselves scientists-in-method resort to making stuff up out of nothing. It's laughable.

Counselling is effective though. We get it with friends and family, for a kick off. And with people who have become consumed by defense mechanisms, such as denial, psychiatry is still the most effective method around.

it's the only method around.

But nothing of it being the only method is able to prove its worth.

[worm]

nope, it's simply because there's no meaningful measure.

Edited August 8, 2012 by worm

[eFestivals]

Yes there is. There are measurable psychological processes. They are scientifically verified. Just because they manifest variably across individuals does not mean that people don't guess at a significance for them.

corrected for you.

No, it's what we naturally do with each other. If someone is in torment, then we naturally have social support networks to help each other. Counselling is a professional extension of that network.

It's what we naturally do with each other, yup. Counselling is a professional extension of that, yup.

But nothing of that means it's able to prove its worth. 'Feeling better' does not mean that you are.

Edited August 8, 2012 by eFestivals

[worm]

corrected for you.

Edited August 8, 2012 by worm

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Unfortunately I'm introverted and have not got a clue what I am doing! Never have really. I agree that other introverted people can be very engaging once the genie's out of the bottle (this is usually assisted by alcohol) as it were. That said, I'm sure there are some very engaging extroverts too. I don't think you can split the 'camps' in two that way.

[eFestivals]

That's just childish.

I was referring to the quantifiable level of significancy.

and how is what is significant decided?

It's guessed at, cos no one knows what is really significant.

Counselling is a way of trying to help the person manage and cope as they go through this process.

corrected for you.

[worm]

and how is what is significant decided?

[eFestivals]

I was referring to the quantifiable level of significancy.

and how is what is significant decided?

It's guessed at, cos no one knows what is really significant.

As I said, through scientific verification.

I think there's a bit of an error in your theory. PMSL.

[worm]

I think there's a bit of an error in your theory. PMSL.

Edited August 8, 2012 by worm

[eFestivals]

You're going to have to be clearer because your quips that you find so funny aren't making any sense.

what makes no sense are your own words.

You cannot know some thing's significance without something to measure that significance against.

Which gets to mean that *someone* has to make a guess at what is significant in the first place, to create the measure of significance.

Unless that someone guesses right, then everything which comes from that guess cannot be taken as accurate.

So show me how the significance or not of mind-thoughts is decided, which is then able to give everything that comes from it the chance of a modicum of accuracy.

And of course you cannot. Which is where everything about the whole subject ceases to be any science and instead becomes nothing other than guesswork on a hunch.

[eFestivals]

Psychological processes are scientifically verified. There's no theory about it. What's your problem?

You can verify that a psychological process is taking place.

You cannot know what the significance of that psychological process is. You can only guess at its significance.

What I've said there i's exceedingly simple to understand, and gets to prove that your 'theory' is just guesswork with a basis of just about nothing.

[worm]

You cannot know some thing's significance without something to measure that significance against.

[worm]

You cannot know what the significance of that psychological process is. You can only guess at its significance.

[Dave The Hedgehog]

I'm paying attention to what you say with interest, Spindles – with regards to work but especially what you say about the council tax benefits and so on, and I'm curious as to whether or not you've been through the mill with the DWP yet, because that's a whole other dinosaur. I know a lot of people who have had a lot of bad experiences with the DWP so I'd love to hear your experiences with them if you have had any.

[eFestivals]

You measure it against an observable psychological process. It's then verified against other individuals. If it's above 95% consistency, which has been proven over and over again, then it is scientifically significant.

Ahh, OK.

So please tell me how that proves any psychological significance.

What I'm meaning is that you're able to identify that something psychological is happening, and you're able to identify how a person interacts with that psychological happening.

But neither of those things are able to give that psychological happening a meaningful psychological significance. At the end of the day all they're identifying is that something happens, not its significance to that person. After all, a stated significance by the subject is not able to be proven as of actually being of that psychological significance.

And half the time anyway, these 'experts' try telling the subject that the significance that person puts on that psychological happening isn't actually its significance. At the end of the day there is only guesswork as the basis.

For all we know, a state of happiness could be psychologically damaging. You certainly can't prove that it's not, aside from within the guessed-at framework that the whole subject area has as its basis.

At the heart of the psychology there are no proven facts, there is only guesswork.

[Spindles]

I have not. I have been in work with the same company for 8 years, for the last 5 they have been hounding me into depression, making it worse, degrading my life to the point that I am living in my own personal hell with no way to see a way out.

I had been through this before with another company and was determined not to allow it to happen again, so my defense mechanism was to remove every avenue of attack. I am never late, I start 15 minutes early and leave on time or later, I take shorted breaks than I am entitled to and ensure thst my work is seen to be dramatically more productive than those around me in order that there is no way they can legitimately sack me. As soon as this started (with me asking my line manager not to share racist jokes with me) I was hit with a disciplinary, appealed and it was upheld. Since that point I determined to give them no ammunition.

August 2010 I became ill with a kidney infection, the gp was ambivilent, I had time out of work sick and they had an avenue of attack. The gp continurd to ignore me when I turned up, basically telling me there was nothing wrong (even though I was in pain and peeing blood), scheduled some tests and never followed up on them, when I made appointments and asked about this I was told there was nothing wrong.

May 2011 I suffered my first spontaneous pneumothorax and, knowing that this would likely lead to disciplinary action, got my daughter to photograph me just after the drain had been fitted and stick it on facebook so there would be no arguing. Within days of coming out of hospital I was receiving phone calls at home asking me to cancel my holiday (trip to glastonbury with my kids) or they would remove my sick pay. I declined, explaining that I had taken advice from my doctor who confirmed that if the kids did the carrying it would be fine and no risk to my recovery.

Every time I tried to call work and speak to my line manager he was not available, in fact I was told that he was "in a meeting with HR discussing your case" and my request for returned calls were ignored. When I returned to work I was given an occupational health assessment, who agreed that I should be on reduced duties for 28 days to allow me to get back into things, on the 2nd day they demanded I return to full duties. I again declined. My supervisor quit that day, following this discussion.

For the following 12 months, ground down by bullying at work, I kept my nose down, worked hard and ensured there was no way they could get rid of me. I had some time out with pain and depression, all of which was legitimate. They held regular meetings and spent their days discussing the fact that there was nothing wrong with me.

In may 2012 my lung again collapsed, this time it was agreed surgery was the only way to resolve this,which I have just had. Between that point I have been extremely ill (when I had the surgery it arose that my right lung has been completely detached from the pleura for this time, explaining the pain). There are still people who are saying there is nothing wrong with me. My employer have been phoning me at home or sending me texts, telling me I need to contact them daily "in line with HR procedure" as they are currently hoping to get me on "failing to follow company absence reporting procedure", which I will not allow.

At every point the council have been combatitive and unhelpful, they cancelled my claim on the basis that I did not respond to a letter I never received, I tried to appeal but was hospitalised with the lung and therefore am now paying back every penny.

I dont want benefits. I want the right to be able to go to work free from persecution, in an environment where everyone pulls together evenly. Not an environment which is divided into 2 camps: a prison camp and a holiday camp.

For a time I blamed the individuals who were persecuting, but it is now clear that they were being driven to do so from someone above in the organisation, as every single person who has been involved has eventually resigned while I have continued to hold my ground, work hard and not submit.

As I have still yet to get a diagnosis for why my body is collapsing (it is likely to be something called marfan#s syndrome, but they will not countenance this, merely fobbing me off at every visit, like they have for years with depression) I am not in a position to seek any sort of disability benefit, so no, I have yet to meet the DWP, but from my experiences with other officials I think I know what to expect.

[eFestivals]

Spindles - I know you don't wish to let them win, but they don't deserve your efforts.

Leave. Leave now. Tell them they're c**ts, and don't deserve you. That is your victory.

I understand that it might be difficult to get another job and that might make your life difficult, but I can't see how you'd be worse off.

Edited August 8, 2012 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

In fact, don't just 'leave'. Tell them you will not be returning to work but that you will be taking them to an employment tribunal for constructive dismissal.

[worm]

What I'm meaning is that you're able to identify that something psychological is happening, and you're able to identify how a person interacts with that psychological happening.

Edited August 8, 2012 by worm

[Spindles]

I get your ooint, I know this is an option, but in doing so I leave behind me others to be treated the same. I have to make this stand, to fight for meritocracy or this pattern will continue.

I believe that the world is waking up at the moment, that unfettered capitalism and the freedom to bully and harass will be seen to be not the answer, I feel that I have to fight to do my bit in this or my time was for nothing.

An army of right wingers are posting lies on the internet daily now, because the world woke up to the lies of the media, they want us divided and use tactics of fear to do so. Milgram got it right, they make decent people the tools of suppresion, who do so blindly because authority tells them to, then they themselves feel devalued, realising that, having done this if they stop then they are next. Having been part of the bullying you look at the victim differently, really because you know in your heart what you have done is wrong, but also because you fear they will start on you next.