Depression - TalkSport Diagnosis

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

I despise the DWP with a passion.

Dealing with people and helping them with their various benefits and appeals was another voluntary job I got involved in in 2011 – kind of like what the CAB do except a bit more intimate and personal, and with actual physical assistance - and the level of desperation I saw come from people who'd had a condition like depression and anxiety but really couldn't work and were judged fit to work was astonishing.

The DWP is without the doubt the worst 'service' available to anybody with a disability, and it has become much, much worse since about 2010 whenever those claiming incapacity benefit were being fazed onto the ESA scheme. People focus on the NHS (perhaps a little to much if I'm honest) and criticise it and the service it provides, but the real problem is the DWP.

If you want to make a claim for any support nowadays, or appeal a decision – especially if you're somebody with a mental disability – the only way you will get any support is if you are too sick to be able to physically move to approach them in the first place, but because you're too sick to move there's no way you can get the support; they know this and they perpetuate it. I've heard stories of people with MS getting turned away for disability benefit on the grounds that they could use their hands to write the paperwork for themselves and could therefore work in an office job.

I've been in more than a handful of these points based assessments they have now (most recently in April) where a woman who visibly self harms, is told that she is safe to work around sharp objects and knives because she poses no danger to anybody else. I went into another where a man who was claiming ESA because his symptoms of anxiety forced him to stay inside, lost his benefits on the grounds that he actually turned up to the assessment he had to go to otherwise he'd have lost his benefits (this was the most common reason people with depression lost their benefits) - it turned out that when he WON his appeal, the person that assessed him was a carer from Lithuania who couldn't even write in English. I could give maybe 12 or 13 examples of the same sort of things happening. The assessments are an absolute joke.

What's important for you, people like you, and others not like you but who feel cheated by the system is that there are always channels you can go through to find somebody who will – not necessarily fight for you, but fight alongside you, and it's important to remember that you are not alone. Me saying that on here isn't much help, I know, and I can't relate to your condition – only sympathise – but it's just to reassure you that you're not alone in knowing (note: not 'thinking'; absolutely fucking certain) that the system is awash with problems. I just hope you find the peace you want. I sincerely do.

[rachbon]

Your situaton with work is just awful Spindles

I don't know know employers/management can be so cold hearted and nasty towards people who suffer from mental illness.

I really hope you can keep fighting them, but it shouldn't be at the expense of your health.

I was sacked from a job in September 2010 because I have depression. There is a bit more to it, it wasn't just a straighforward "you're sacked." I worked for an outsourcing company and they were trying to force me into something that was not part of my job and I felt that I couldn't do it because it was a trigger for my depression. They weren't even willing to discuss it (even although they altered the roles of the job to suit people with physical illnesses) and basically I was sacked from the project.

I was so angry and did look into taking them to a tribunal, as depression can be considered a disability under the disability discrimination act, and employers are expected to make reasonable adjustments. But I was so ill that it was using every bit of my energy and I had to give up because I couldn't have coped if I'd taken them to a tribunal and lost. When you're feeling suicidal every day it's difficult to think about anything else. I still regret not taking them to a tribunal, because they will think they've won and I still don't feel like I have closure from the whole horrible situation. I have issues with leaving things in the past though and am always looking for closure. I wonder if this is part of my illness (which I am not convinced is depression, but that's what the doctor's have told me I have).

Living with a mental illness just feels like a constant battle, people don't want to understand. They've just made their mind up that there's nothing wrong with you.

[worm]

OK say you've got someone who's been referred to an occupational counsellor because they've been accused of bullying.

And what's been happening is this. Every time there's a minor altercation between them and a colleague, they're terrified they're going to get in trouble, with colleagues or management. So they involve other people to put pressure on the target, not to take it any further. Inevitably, the target eventually has enough and reports it. The bully has no insight into their part in the escalation, and feels their belief in the malice of the target is validated.

counselling would explore other outcomes based on alternative strategies - a simple apology for instance. So the bully is able to change their perception of the situation, and modify their destructive behaviour.

[eFestivals]

OK say you've got someone who's been referred to an occupational counsellor because they've been accused of bullying.

And what's been happening is this. Every time there's a minor altercation between them and a colleague, they're terrified they're going to get in trouble, with colleagues or management. So they involve other people to put pressure on the target, not to take it any further. Inevitably, the target eventually has enough and reports it. The bully has no insight into their part in the escalation, and feels their belief in the malice of the target is validated.

counselling would explore other outcomes based on alternative strategies - a simple apology for instance. So the bully is able to change their perception of the situation, and modify their destructive behaviour.

that deals with where the perceived problem and the guilt are rightfully placed on the bully.

When the truth of a situation and where the finger of guilt is being pointed are in different places, it all falls apart.

And it falls apart because a 'right' thought is being designated as 'wrong' one by those who claim to be able to identify what is 'right' and 'wrong' but can't actually manage what they claim of themselves.

That's of course about an extreme example as it's possible to get to, but the same problem exists thru-out anything which might be examined - that treating something 'wrong' is only possible if the 'wrong' is correctly identified. But what is 'right' and what is wrong' cannot be properly identified.

And so the whole idea of psychology is stuffed, because it's all built on top of a guessed-at idea of what is 'right' and 'wrong'.

[worm]

And it falls apart because a 'right' thought is being designated as 'wrong' one by those who claim to be able to identify what is 'right' and 'wrong' but can't actually manage what they claim of themselves.

[rachbon]

I despise the DWP with a passion. I've heard stories of people with MS getting turned away for disability benefit on the grounds that they could use their hands to write the paperwork for themselves and could therefore work in an office job.

[worm]

My Dad has progressive MS so is quite severely disabled and had to stop working years ago. Over the years he's received a few letters basically saying "right that's long enough on benefits, back to work now." I don't know if there's just an automated system to send out letters, but these things cause so much stress to my parents that they just don't need. It's so fucking inconsiderate. Some illnesses are really complex and the only person who should be assessing whether you are fit to work or not is a doctor. Although I would say that after 17 years of being diagnosed with MS, you would no longer require an assessment because in my Dad's case, his physical situation won't improve.

[eFestivals]

Neil, in the ever-so common example I just gave you, they spent their whole lifetime without being able to rectify the situation.

and yet that proves nothing of whether the situation was about to be self-rectified anyway.

Psychotherapy, with it's exceptional knowledge

oh do piss off. It's still in the dark ages.

of pathological processes and defense mechanisms, was able to pin-point the trauma so that the patient could get out of the cycle. This is scientifically verified Neil, because we know how pathological processes work.

"was", or "might"?

(the answer is of course 'might' and not 'was')

And how can you prove that what was 'pin-pointed' was actually the correct thing? It might be the case that pin-pointing then triggered something else (in which case therapy is responsible for the cure, but by luck and not knowledge).

As for the 'scientifically verified', that's bollocks. There is an idea that another idea says is right; that's self-satisfied, not 'scientifically verified'.

Until such time as someone is able to definitively says what are rightful thoughts and what are wrongful ones, the whole thing is a house of cards.

Without the introduction of psychotherapy, they would be locked in the destructive cycle.

Unprovable.

People self-rectify all the time.

And since the idea of psychology therapy came to exist, more people are deemed to have problems than felt they had problems previously.

If that doesn't scream "self satisfying" to you, then nothing will.

Psychotherapists observe patients over time. They observe the cycle as the patient goes through it over and over again. Then they start to engage. If they hadn't engaged, then the person would still be locked in the cycle.

unless they weren't still locked in of course.

If you accept that there are processes (bricks) then you have to accept that psychotherapy (building) works.

PMSL. There are bricks, but not all bricks become buildings.

I very much doubt that a layman would be able to get anywhere close to helping someone with deep-routed psychological issues. Not even remotely close. In fact, I know they wouldn't.

yeah, cos no one ever got over their issues until the advent of psychobabble.

So not only can I prove it, but I just did.

nope, you've simply spouted some self-satisfying words, of the intellectual depth () of "psychology says that psychology is right".

That translates as "ideas say that other ideas are right".

It makes as much sense as saying "if I put one foot onto the ground in front of the other foot on the ground, that's called swimming" - because if I say it's called swimming, that's what it is.

Psychobabble has successfully identified that there's thought processes. Everything beyond that is guesswork.

[eFestivals]

Right and wrong is a moral distinction and has no place in psychology. There is only what is and what isn't wanted, either by society or by the individual.

right/wrong, wanted/unwanted. Spot the difference.

But hey, don't let yourself avoid the point with a linguistic irrelevance. That wouldn't be like you at all.

[eFestivals]

Right and wrong is a moral distinction and has no place in psychology. There is only what is and what isn't wanted, either by society or by the individual.

or, alternatively....

My take on psychology is clearly unwanted by you, thus proving (via your own definition ) that your take on psychology is your display of your own psychological damage.

[Dave The Hedgehog]

Over the years he's received a few letters basically saying "right that's long enough on benefits, back to work now." I don't know if there's just an automated system to send out letters, but these things cause so much stress to my parents that they just don't need.

[worm]

What an utter waste of space.

[Spindles]

Dave, Rachel, Rufus, thank you for so clearly having an insight into what is going on here. It feels like a conspiracy with the doctors, the council, my work all working together to push me over the edge.

The first time I tried to appeal I explained in writing that my anxiety meant that it was hard for me to make contact to which I received the following reply:

''and yet you go to work"

Not even a properly constructed sentence. I was working reduced hours in (at the time) an organisation who were willing to work with me to help.

I had more to say here,but deleted it, because as I say, they have made it plain to me they know my user name on this forum and are reading my posts. I cannot say anything which could be seen as defamatory, even when it is the truth.

I've managed to sleep at last, no longer pacing and trying to do everything (my daughter went to work and I decided to vacuum and mop, then decided to pull the fridge out and exploded in pain, haven't been able to move since and slept this afternoon.

I tried to appeal the decision, as I say, but they put barriers in the way at every point, I have every record they hold on me, including that response, but never reached the point of the hearing because of the lung.

I've stopped taking my pain killers now. They make me feel worse, if anything, phasing in and out and buzzing like a fridge just makes life seem less real. I realise I am going to have to start again soon (hurts like hell) but it is like they are cumulative, each time the nasty effects are worse, longer, taking over everything til you don't know if the feeling you have is from the pain or from the pills. 5pm I will have half a dose (skipped 3 doses).

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Depression is so much part of my life I dont really notice. I had a really good day yesterday (gardening, making a bbq from a washing machine). Thursday I make burgers and let the kida have some wine. I awoke at 3.30am wanting to just end it all. I could not top crying. I walked past my daughters room and she came out. She wanted to hug me, but I need to be on my own. How fucked up is it when you say to some one you love you "want to go down stairs to cry". My kids know what I am like, and I accept who I am am, but sometimes it would be nice........................

[Spindles]

If it helps in any small way, you are not alone, people out there understand and this is not your fault. You know, deep down, that this is the result of an infinite number of circumstances, factors and influences leading to the inevitable conclusion of you being who you are. Yes, there are those out there who have no clue, yes, there are problems which today seem insurmountable but soon, maybe not tomorrow, or the day after, soon, you will find a solution to one small part that lifts the burden.

Every day a little better, even if it doesn't feel that way. The key (at least to me) seems to be acceptance and understanding, finding a way to break it all down into manageable chunks and chip away at them until what was once an enormous boulder you were pushing up a hill becomes a pile of pebbles you could just kick aside. Be aware, of course, that you WILL be pushing a different boulder again in the future even if you smash this one, but knowing it can be done once is knowing it can be done again and again, right?

Sorry to hear it's hard now Rufus, I've been in the exact same situation with my own daughter in the last couple of weeks and you have to know she understands and does not judge. She loves you because you're her dad.

I have finally hit the down stroke, nothing but sleep now. Work phoned me yesterday to tell me that they stopped my sick pay over week ago and, once again, that they want me to come in and talk to HR. I remained calm and peaceable, explained that I knew this would be the case and that I would not be coming in to speak to HR while I am signed off by the doctor, wished them well and ended the call.

I still need to speak to advocacy people as obviously now I don't have income to cover the bills, however this is going to have to wait til Monday now.

[Spindles]

I've been reading the rest of this thread (I'd read the first few pages, then hit reply and not gone back, this time I've got as far as page 6 and feel the need to reply..

Rufus raised the point that city dwellers suffer depression at around twice the rate than non-city dwellers. I've happened to read this morning that seaside dwellers suffer depression at around half the rate of countryside dwellers too.

[worm]

Interestingly Blackpool has the highest rate of prescriptions for anti-depressants in the UK. Not arguing with anything you are saying, just an interesting counter statistic I read a couple of weeks ago.

[Spindles]

Yeah, sort of the point I'm making, that in fact it is far too complex an issue to say 'satistically people from urban areas/up north/by the sea/warm climates/whatever are more prone to mental illness' but it is easy to reach such conclusions because intelligence is largely about the recognition of patterns (I believe, I should add, I'm not qualified to offer more than my own experience and the conclusions I have drawn from them) and statistical analysis has become an ever more popular method of reinforcing beliefs.

Having read further this thread has become more and more interesting and some of the more informed comments have helped me gain an insight into an area I have experience of, but claim no expertise or specific knowledge in.

[eFestivals]

Interestingly Blackpool has the highest rate of prescriptions for anti-depressants in the UK. Not arguing with anything you are saying, just an interesting counter statistic I read a couple of weeks ago.

I'm not really surprised. There's plenty of doggy seaside towns, and Blackpool is often mentioned as being a town with larger problems than most others (both on the coast or inland).

There's also a host of practical reasons which could be skewing the results for why people living on the coast are (as an average) less depressed - the many wealthy retirees being one example.

[worm]

Yeah, sort of the point I'm making, that in fact it is far too complex an issue to say 'satistically people from urban areas/up north/by the sea/warm climates/whatever are more prone to mental illness' but it is easy to reach such conclusions because intelligence is largely about the recognition of patterns (I believe, I should add, I'm not qualified to offer more than my own experience and the conclusions I have drawn from them) and statistical analysis has become an ever more popular method of reinforcing beliefs.

Edited August 22, 2012 by worm

[kaosmark2]

It's a psychological phenomena that is caused individually. So you'd have to look at each individual.

[worm]

Which sort of backs up the idea that a lot of psychological analysis and trends are meaningless.

Edited August 22, 2012 by worm

[eFestivals]

For instance, people who suffer from dependency will have a very large scew towards bi-polar depression.

I've never known a single addict who suffers depression.

I've known one person who suffered depression (which I believe was caused by sexual abuse in childhood, tho that's more a guess than sure knowledge) who became an addict. The addiction was just an extension of the death wish he was already living out before he encountered drugs (and eventually the drugs helped him fulfil that wish).

So I'd be hugely surprised if there's anything of science behind that statement of yours.

I'd say it backs up the fact that linking psychological phenomena with regional proximity is unscientific.

The way you normally say is this way: if a scientific method is followed then it's science.

So why the change of heart here? Would it be because that particular scientific application doesn't match with the hoodoo ideas of psychology?

Edited August 22, 2012 by eFestivals

[Spindles]

The mention of dependency is something that my son and I were discussing, following the recent Russell Brand documentary. There is a moment where he is talking about the first time he met Amy Winehouse and he says something along the lines of "She's got it".

I believe that sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes, people with certain mental illness (rather than the catch all term of depression, because there is, I believe, a sliding scale from blindly happy through to "I can see the link from why people keep dogs through to why Rupert Murdoch really runs the world") can identify one another in an almost love at first sight manner. I might not have explained that very well, but what I'm trying to convey is that I believe that addiction and some upper spectrum (is that the best way to describe it?) psychological conditions are one and the same, just not really understood.

I might harm the discussion by being an "interested amateur". Having read the whole thread last night I came away enriched, thanks to those who posted the insight they did.

[Spindles]

I've never known a single addict who suffers depression.