France Burqa ban

[eFestivals]

The reason for it being banned in France is because it is a symbol of inequality, sexism and subjugation.

... and because the right-wing nutters that Sarkosy is cosying up to think that everyone should do what they say.

[worm]

... and because the right-wing nutters that Sarkosy is cosying up to think that everyone should do what they say.

[Stash]

just been Reading up on it. It's not a specific ban of the burqa, although that's obviously what it was intended for, it's a ban on conceiling the face in public, meaning being spiderman in the carfour, or playing batman and robin on the bus is also now illegal. France sucks

[worm]

just been Reading up on it. It's not a specific ban of the burqa, although that's obviously what it was intended for, it's a ban on conceiling the face in public, meaning being spiderman in the carfour, or playing batman and robin on the bus is also now illegal.

[eFestivals]

Its about the subjugation of women

not entirely.

A large number of people who wear the veil in Europe are converts to Islam, who have chosen to adopt that version of clothing themselves. So at the end of the day it's no more subjugation than your own choice to often where jeans.

And for the more traditional wearers, at the end of the day there's no difference between a religion and/or its adherents forcing women to wear a particular set of clothes to a state forcing them not to.

Personally, I'm uncomfortable with either version. Ultimately, I side with free choice - and as long as any state is prepared to support a person's free choice to wear a veil as well as a choice to not do in light of religious pressure then I think that state would have it right.

[worm]

I don't think it is strictly illegal to wear a burqa or any other face covering in Carrefour or any other private public space, but that Carrefour can refuse to allow people with their faces covered to allow access to the shop, in the same way that is already done for people in crash helmets etc. If someone wearing a burqa was to leave their house, get in the car, park in Carrefour's car park and then walk into Carrefour, they won't have actually broken the law will they as it is all on private land or in their own vehicle?

Edited April 12, 2011 by worm

[eFestivals]

Many of the left wing nutters are after the same policy.

Yep. Tho for different reasons, reasons that do not always apply. Many people wear them as their own free choice.

And Sarkosy isn't trying to win their votes by having this ban. But he is trying to win the votes of the far right.

[worm]

A large number of people who wear the veil in Europe are converts to Islam, who have chosen to adopt that version of clothing themselves. So at the end of the day it's no more subjugation than your own choice to often where jeans.

[worm]

Yep. Tho for different reasons, reasons that do not always apply. Many people wear them as their own free choice.

Edited April 12, 2011 by worm

[eFestivals]

Why would it matter whether the 'convert' was european or Islamic? It's about what the veil represents, not what culture you're from. It's a sign of subjugation, regardless of your ethnicity.

Yep, it's about what the veil represents.

So how are you able to tell those people who have chosen to wear it thru their own free choice that your view of what it represents over-rides their own view of what it represents?

To you it might mean the removal of their identity as a person by hiding their person. To them it might represent an expression of their identity by a demonstration of their religious beliefs no different to a Christian wearing a crucifix. Or it might even mean the freedom from being gawked at by blokes.

Ultimately, how is their freedom increased by having to submit to your wishes rather than their own?

[eFestivals]

Only, of course, leftist nutters don't believe in freedom.

good to see your knowledge of the left is still as rooted in ignorance and stupidity as you showed it was last week.

The freedom to be oppressed is not the freedom you want you believe that it is.

[worm]

Yep, it's about what the veil represents.

[worm]

good to see your knowledge of the left is still as rooted in ignorance and stupidity as you showed it was last week.

[worm]

So in conclusion you can't do right or wrong regarding it...

So do what the majority of people seem to want... I would guess the majority are fine with it being banned...

[eFestivals]

Precisely, which is a subjugation of women to men. Someone doing something of their own free will can still be subjugation.

For example, if a woman lets a man abuse her she is being subjugated by man.

This is what you've overlooked.

I've overlooked nothing.

While that is no doubt why some people wear a veil, it's not the case for everyone. For some it is undoubtedly free choice.

I don't have time for the long post this really needs, but I'll try a shortened version.....

The right to work and the right to religious freedom are regarded as basic human rights. With both in more normal circumstances, these are allowed free operation except where they come into conflict with the wider views of society: for example, we have a minimum wage - below that wage is exploitation. For example, Al-Qeada type views are outside of what societies feel is acceptable - murders, and the like. Etc, etc, etc.

With both, if 'a force' is trying to force someone into doing something outside of those wider views then - but only then - the law steps in and supports them.

With this veil ban, there's nothing like that. It is an arbitrary ban. It not supporting just those people who are forced into wearing a veil, it is saying the veil is ALWAYS wrong.

Here's betting that a law saying that the wearing of jeans is ALWAYS wrong would get a different response from you, yet it's absolutely no different. And so your prejudices are exposed.

[eFestivals]

So in conclusion you can't do right or wrong regarding it...

So do what the majority of people seem to want... I would guess the majority are fine with it being banned...

if they are, then that's only because it doesn't effect them.

If it were a ban on wearing jeans - which is absolutely in different in regards to free choice or not - then the response would be different, I guarantee.

[worm]

Here's betting that a law saying that the wearing of jeans is ALWAYS wrong would get a different response from you.....

[The Nal]

On what grounds could they say that wearing jeans is wrong?

I know the grounds on which they say that women having to wear the Burqa when in public is wrong: it being sexist. It's not something that I necessarily agree with, but I understand the grounds on which they have found it sexist.

Edited April 12, 2011 by The Nal

[worm]

Most religions are sexist. Why pick on the Muslims?

[guypjfreak]

ok so i do agree that SOME women wear them out of choice but i also agree that there are ALOT of women that are forced to wear the burqa so why not a partial ban ..??it wouldn't work because the women that are forced to wear it probably are going to be to scared to say so .

also wot about wearing it in banks ect your not aloud to wear some thing that covers your whole face there are you .

if we choose and choose is the word to visit there country's then we HAVE to observe there laws our women cover up we dont drink beer so shouldn't they have to do the same in our country ..

one last thing how can you tell if its a women ....example.... http://islamizationwatch.blogspot.com/2009/08/burqa-clad-man-armed-with-gun-and-axe.html

[The Nal]

They aren't. They're picking on public displays of sexism.

Edited April 12, 2011 by The Nal

[worm]

See my point? Where do you draw the line here?

[The Nal]

If you really want to open up some feminist dialogue then you could argue that everything should be banned because it's all phallo-centric. I doubt you'd like to do that though.

But this isn't about banning architecture, or even a form of dress, it's about banning men from making women cover themselves up in public. The question should really be, ''is this a good way of going about it?'', which is why I have reservations.

[worm]

Know what you mean yeah. You’re basically saying Islam needs to be abolished. I get ya.

[The Nal]

No. I think that the idea of Islam as a backward-thinking religiously fanatical civilisation should be banned though.