Dale Farm

[eFestivals]

I have said time and time again I don't believe every traveller to be badly behaved... What more can I say...

But you want to spin me as hating every traveller.

I only have your words to go on. That's what your words said.

[eFestivals]

I think most people wouldn't like a council estate built on there door step for similar reasons they wouldn't want a travellers camp...

that might well be true.

But the council estate gets built anyway. The same doesn't apply with traveller sites.

Its a class issue and not a race issue to be quite frank. I don't believe for a second that the majority of people view travellers as a different race. Rightly or wrongly.... I think people view it on class terms...

I tried to be honest about how I would feel, I have tried to understand what other people feel and I have tried to be honest on the real reasons why I would object. Also backed it up with real first hand experiences as did others. Experience you refuse to accept. Despite them being a reality.

You just want to live in your ivory tower and call me a racist. Its not helpful. Specially since you said you would prefer green belt to a caravan site.

I said I'd prefer green land to used land you lying moron (the same as just about everyone would). I don't have a preference for what gets put on that land if something is to be put on that land. I accept that travellers have as much right of a place to live as you or I have.

If it's merely a 'class' issue, why are the "low classes" in council houses and the "low classes" in caravans treated differently, as proven by the developments of each that are allowed to go ahead? So it's more than simply a class issue.

Yes, I accept that you've tried to be honest about how you feel. What you're not getting is that others think how you feel is unreasonable and unrealistic, because the only solution you can offer is "somewhere else", which is not a workable idea. If "somewhere else" has to accept travellers living there then "here" also has to accept them.

You say "I have tried to understand what other people feel", but that attempt has not included how those travellers might feel, who have as much right to live their lives in the manner they know as you have in the manner you know.

As I've already said, the discrimination suffered by travellers has its root in the historical persecution of Gypsies/Romanies - and that's certainly rooted in racism. The link to how travellers of all sorts are treated today is far less tenuous than you wish to believe.

[eFestivals]

No you are cherry picking words... and taking them out of the context of the rest of my posts.

For example you ignore my reasons I would raise objections against such a development, why concentrating on my fears which wouldn't form part of an objection. Its nice a twist... and it works well to just beat someone up, but it isn't the reality of someones overall thoughts and feelings...

Its about class...

Any person can cook up a list of reasons against any development, for houses or travellers.

If you get past that, to a point where you accept that a piece of land is going to be used to provide places to live for people - as happens all the time (in the case of houses, anyway) - then it becomes an issue simply of whether people should be allowed to live in caravans as well as or instead of houses on that piece of land, or not.

(that's not me saying that any development should be dual use btw - tho perhaps that wouldn't be a bad idea)

So why should houses be allowed, but not caravans? Both are suitable dwellings for people to live in if that's their choice of dwelling.

People have to live somewhere. So it makes no difference which of those they live in (if it's their choice). It shouldn't make any difference to you either, you're not the one living there.

So, if the choice is houses with what might be regarded as "the worst type of council tenant" or a site for travellers and their caravans, then in your eyes the people are of about the same class.

So what's your objection now? Do you still have one?

[eFestivals]

Its a class issue to me not a race issue... I fear a traveller site the same way I fear council estate, for all the shit that always comes with it... I think that is how the average NIMBY sees it as well as I don't think my average mindset is that much different than the average joe to be frank...

So - on the bit of spare land next to your house, planning has been given for either the worst kind of council tenants in houses (the sort of 'sink estate' we know exists in plenty of places), or for travellers and their caravans.

It's all equal on a class basis, and in regard to your fears. Any nimby-ism you have is out of the window, the development is going to happen anyway.

Which is your preference?

And if you've no preference, why is it that you think the planning rules are fair and about right, when in reality they'd give permission for that 'sink estate' but not a travellers site?

[worm]

Aye... many can be found in this country... Just because some do it successfully does not mean all will be successful...

[eFestivals]

You keep saying things like caravans are suitable dwellings... Its not an opinion I share, other than in some last case situations we could dream up... That would be the basis of my objection if I was outside my house...

I would object to the caravan site on the basis on the type of dwelling... haven't I made that clear ?

How aren't they suitable as places to reside in?

They're warm and dry, and have all the facilities that anyone might need to live. They're certainly no health risk to the people who live in them.

And in the case of any fully legal travellers site where they're allowed to reside permanently, they'd be a communal toilet block at the very least, so human waste disposal isn't any part of the argument.

So why aren't they suitable places to live?

(that's a different question to why you personally might not want to live in one, btw - we're talking about people who want to live in them because that's what they know).

[The Nal]

If the government is going to cough up 18m, why not invest in a load of these instead and be done with it.

[5co77ie]

There's now two other legal challenges in place after Thursday - this is probably going to go on for sometime yet.

[eFestivals]

Dale Farm travellers win! LMAO... Well kind of...

Full judicial review... and looks like the council won't be able to remove everything etc...

End result seems like it will be a delaying tactic, more costs etc... No one believes they are going to be able to stay... Even so the travellers and protestors seem happy.

I wouldn't be so sure they won't stay - after all, moving them increases the legal problems, it doesn't make the legal problems go away. When added to that are the council's spurious reasons for trying to evict them, the law might well rule on the side of sense and not stupidity.

But none of this would be happening anyway if the application of the law by councils wasn't done in a discriminatory way, and hopefully that court ruling might address that side of things in some way too (tho perhaps doing that is outside of its remit). The best result for everyone that can come out of all this is a better and more realistic implementation of the law.

[nightcrawler13]

I would object to the caravan site on the basis on the type of dwelling... haven't I made that clear ?

[abdoujaparov]

maybe i missed it, but i'm not clear as to why you object to people living in caravans...

[Paul ™]

maybe i missed it, but i'm not clear as to why you object to people living in caravans...

[eFestivals]

there's plenty of places for nodding dogs. A place for discussions is never one of them.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

I think most people wouldn't like a council estate built on there door step for similar reasons they wouldn't want a travellers camp...

Its a class issue and not a race issue to be quite frank. I don't believe for a second that the majority of people view travellers as a different race. Rightly or wrongly.... I think people view it on class terms...

I tried to be honest about how I would feel, I have tried to understand what other people feel and I have tried to be honest on the real reasons why I would object. Also backed it up with real first hand experiences as did others. Experience you refuse to accept. Despite them being a reality.

You just want to live in your ivory tower and call me a racist. Its not helpful. Specially since you said you would prefer green belt to a caravan site.

[abdoujaparov]

That comes from a EU ruling... I dnt think popular opinion and EU regulations are always in line...

[eFestivals]

That comes from a EU ruling... I dnt think popular opinion and EU regulations are always in line...

but neither is popular opinion and sense always in line either.

If we relied on popular opinion to set the scene then we'd still have slavery, we'd still discriminate against different races and sexuality, and we'd have mobs roaming the streets looking for paediatricians to string up from the nearest lamp post.

Yes, I did mean to say paediatricians and not paedophiles. That's how stupid 'popular opinion' often is.

[eFestivals]

Equally minority opinion can lack sense...

Absolutely. I was simply pointing out that just because something might be the opinion of the majority, it doesn't mean that opinion is necessarily worth anything.

[eFestivals]

Other when you talking about the general feeling and opinions of the majority of the country... I know you believe only your informed wonderful opinion counts for any worth but others disagree

Some opinions are formed from knowledge and facts, while others are not.

Such as with who classes as a distinct race or not.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

That comes from a EU ruling... I dnt think popular opinion and EU regulations are always in line...

[abdoujaparov]

I have been searching and I can't find any EU ruling, and I am certain that there is no EU legislation relating to Census. I have found that the Race Relations Act 1975 did recognise Gypsys as a race, in fact I found that an act dating back to 1530 (Egyptians Act) banned Gypsies from England.

Really in this modern era one would think that you would at least do a little research before showing your ignorance.

[t8yman]

its all kicking off down there by the looks of it.....

[eFestivals]

its all kicking off down there by the looks of it.....

yup ... the police at the front gate say it's a bailiff's action and they're only there to stop a breach of the peace, while the police storm their way over the fence at the back with most of what they're doing out of sight of the cameras ... tho I've still seen more than one instance of the police twatting someone with their truncheons simply for committing the 'offence' of taking up space on the planet. It's sickening.

Imagine yourself in their position - being told if you move anywhere you're being illegal, and you're illegal if you don't move. They couldn't even fly off into the sky if they wanted, the old bill have that covered too with a chopper.

It's all very well saying they shouldn't be there, but if they have no alternative options open to them (all the alternatives are at least of the same illegality as Dale Farm, most more so) what the fuck are they meant to do? The govt would like them to simply disappear but all that shows is how stupid the govt are.

[t8yman]

Just lately I'm all for civil disobedience, the way the govt, ministers, bankers, the police and corporations are seeming to ride roughshod over ordinary people. They are doing fuck all for us, and everything to serve themselves.

[eFestivals]

The facts are..

There is other LEGAL sites in the UK.

Some of the travellers where offered alternative accommodation within the town.

Outside of that though I would agree more needs to be done...

The facts are that there's far too few legal pitches, so saying that there's some that are taken already by other people is as pathetic as it gets.

And those who were offered alternative accommodation are only those where the council has a statutory duty to house them. It is not any sort of olive branch or attempt to fulfil the real needs of real people.

No different to you or I, they are simply people, people who wish to get on with their lives, and if possible cause no inconvenienced to others (and don't go fooling yourself that anyone else's existence causes less bother to others than they do; some people didn't want your house where it is just as some people didn't want them where they are).

Barry Fish, you say that everyone should abide by every law. So how do you reconcile that view with the fact that the eviction of these travellers will have the authorities creating a greater illegality than if they were to leave the traverllers were they are?

Give them a real alternative or leave them be.

[eFestivals]

nice .... the police say they'd got intelligence of violence to be used against them, so their response is to go around tazering people