The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

but I don't think you will find anything from me trying ot persuade anyone to vote SNP

yep, I couldn't find anything even when you took time off from here to persuade people to vote SNP.

[eFestivals]

Would Keir Hardie be accepted as a labour Party candidate today?

More-so than he would be accepted as an SNP candidate.

But let's just forget about that part, yeah?

Look, over there, a squirrel.

Edited December 30, 2014 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

ahhh, those wonderful SNP myths. Here's the timeline....

1. Alex says "I'm against the bedroom tax".

2. SLAB bate him, saying "abolish it then. Oh, you can't, can you?"

3. Alex says "yes I can, I'm just not going to, that's all".

4. SLAB says "oh, so you're for it really then?"

5. Alex says "no, I'm against it. I'm going to abolish it, but I'll do nothing to abolish it".

6. SLAB says "that's because you can't".

7. Alex: "yes I can".

8. SLAB: "no you can't".

9. Alex: "yes I can".

10. SLAB: "do it then".

11. Alex: "but i don't know if I'm allowed to".

12. SLAB: "but you said you could".

13. Alex: "I can, but I'm not sure, which is why i'm doing nothing".

14. SLAB: "why not ask Dave then?"

15. Alex: "I'm the Scottish first minister, and I bow down to no one".

16. SLAB: "so do it then".

17. Alex: "I'm not sure if Dave will let me".

18. SLAB: "As you don't know your arse from your elbow, Alex, and because you're such a weakling that won't ask, Alex, shall we ask for you?"

19. Alex: "I'm the first Minister, and I don't need to ask."

20. SLAB: "so you can't do it then."

21. Alex: "yes I can".

22. SLAB: "no you can't".

23. Alex: "yes I can".

24. SLAB: "no you can't".

25. Alex: "will you nice people of SLAB ask Dave for me? I can't be seen to be weak".

26. SLAB: "OK, OK, because you're a weakling we'll ask Dave for you"

<meanwhile 2 years have passed, and Scottish people have been fucked over for 2 years by Alex's fear of looking weak>

27. SLAB: "hey Alex, Dave says 'yes'".

28. Alex: "I'll abolish the Bedroom Tax, cos that's what a nice man I am".

But yeah, Alex was stopped from doing anything about the bedroom tax for years within his own majority SNP govt by SLAB. PMSL.

Neil, we`ve done this mate. I honestly think that you already backed down ( a bit ) on this. Check out " discretionary housing payments "

The Scottish people being fucked over for 2 years......it may have been true in the wider context but the Scottish Govt moved funds to cover the effects of bedroom tax through discretionary payments and also the creation of the Scottish Welfare fund. Money was made available to cover the deductions taken from peoples HB.

Funding was also provided to Local Authorities to bring in new staff to administer the extra cash.

[Comfy Bean]

Sadly I didn`t make up any of the stuff on Jim Murphy I accept though that it is difficult to keep up with what he has been up to ! Looks like scrapping the recent football bigotry law was one of his first pledges. Also turns out he has a season ticket at one of the two clubs who the new law was aimed at.

Anywayz.....my post was not an attempt at " mud slinging ". He clearly stands up for what he believes in across many areas. I was asking if everyone thought that he was the right man to lead the Scottish Labour Party.

What do you think Neil, now you know a bit more about him, would he get your vote ?

I would also be interested to see any post of mine you care to quote where I defended Salmonds meetings with Murdoch. We`ve had 1000`s of posts on Salmond who has now moved on. What about Murphy and some of the people he supports ?

I only knew about his involvement with the Henry Jackson Society as Douglas Murray was on Newsnight giving some " interesting " views on the CIA and torture.

[Comfy Bean]

Nicola Sturgeon has said that Margaret Thatcher inspired her to get into politics - you have to think about that one.

Eddie Milliband said - I`ll lead like the Iron Lady.

Scotland will return a load of Labour MP`s next year and an increased number of SNP MP`s. You will not need more than one hand to count the number of Tories MP`s that will be elected in Scotland.

To " blame " Scotland for a huge number of Torie MP`s getting voted into the UK Parliament is, at best, mis-leading.

[Comfy Bean]

Info on the Poll Tax been released this morning. Tories wanted to " trailblaze "the new tax in Scotland.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30610043

[Comfy Bean]

Can anyone here please tell me where the SNP's magic money tree is, please?

Follow the squirrels

[LJS]

yep, I couldn't find anything even when you took time off from here to persuade people to vote SNP.

Neil, I won't even dignify this Bollox with a reply.

...oh, I just have.

[LJS]

Perhaps that'll be exactly the same as now?

Cos it's Scottish MPs that are propping up the coalition right now.

It's a bit inconvenient to claim that Scotland gets the govt that England votes for at a time when England has the govt that Scottish votes has created.

But just don't mention that bit, eh?

Yeah Neil, it's all the fault of us stupid jocks voting in a massive one Tory & eleven lib dems.

Alternatively, despite the constant narrative from Neil & Labour, voting in a whopping 41 Labour mp's did us....what good exactly?

Vote Labour ...it's the only way to stop the Tories...occasionally.

Q. Why do squirrels like Neil's ideas?

A. Because they are nuts.

[LJS]

Bizarre, really?

What's bizarre is the SNP thinking that high taxes for the rich English is a good thing, but that high taxes for the rich Scottish is a bad thing.

Anyone with a brain might think the SNP have a confused ideology if thinking stopped just there.

For those whose thinking extends a bit further it's clear to see that such contradictions are about fucking over people's lives for political advantage - including fucking over Scottish lives via lies about their intentions.

Either the SNP think the rich should pay more in tax, or they don't. Which is it? You don't know, but you'll claim them as left wing even if they're right wing.

1: the Scottish parliament currently has no power to raise income tax, other than the basic rate

2: the SNP, to the best of my knowledge gave no commitment either way on the top rate of tax after independence. I have quoted a link to John Swinney saying this

3: the SNP voted against the removal of the 50p rate & have said they would support a move to reintroduce it

If any of the above statements are incorrect, please supply evidence to support this.

"because Neil says so" does not count as evidence.

Edited December 30, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

Every now and then I am taken to task for not attacking the SNP.

I don't generally attack them because I really don't feel there is a shortage of people attacking them on here and also many of the attacks are ridiculous fabrications, mis-representations or exaggerations.

I feel debate is better served by someone correcting the above.

This ends up with me being accused of being a "secret" SNP supporter. I'm not & if I was I would not feel any need to be secretive about it.

70 or 80,000 folk have joined the SNP since the referendum & I am not one of them. Why?

Because there are a number of areas where i have doubts & concerns about them.

First & foremost, they walk the left wing talk much more than they walk the left wing walk. this is not to say that I agree with most of Neil's preposterous assertions. I think they have taken the view that being seen as competent in Government will reap rewards. this requires them not to do anything too "radical"

They are too much like the other main parties, too much central control over policy, candidate selection & increasingly more & more career politicians.

I also think they painted too rosy a picture of life straight after independence and made a number of ill- judged tactical decisions throughout the campaign.

I also believed they have largely missed a great opportunity to build a broad independence movement on the back of all the grass roots stuff largely because they are terrified to lose control.

So there's why I am not a wholehearted SNP man. I have voted for them a few times and may well do so again.

[LJS]

For some reason this thread has recently degenerated into a who is more left? lab or SNP competition.

Well actually, we know the reason, rather than respond to the substance of my criticisms of the Labour Party, Neil decided to deflect it by trying desperately to show that the SNP were to the right of Labour in a number of areas. this meant he did not have to address the areas where Labour have clearly moved to the right , particularly immigration & benefits.

Another of his tactics & this has been going on for a long time is to portray all the universally provided, non means tested freebies we get in Scotland ( personal care for the elderly, eye tests, Uni education, prescriptions) as essentially a subsidy from the poor to the middle classes & therefore rather right wing and has been a central plank of his argument that the SNP is further to the right than Labour. Quite how he deals with the fact that the most expensive (& exponentially so as the population ages), free personal care for the elderly was introduced by the Labour party, I'm not sure. However, as a student of politics, he should be well aware that universality was for many years a central principle for the left and to describe it as right wing is ( as with many of his positions) crass & over-simplistic. He should also be aware that when you means test things a significant number of the "most deserving" fail to claim them.

I am not denying there is a discussion to be had around this &, unlike Neil, I am not blessed with a Divine certainty of right & wrong here. My inclination is that, if we can, we should maintain universality and use the taxation system to address the obvious issues with us giving free things to rich people. Of course the Scottish government has not had the power to do this (even if they had the balls to do so)

A man in the guardian (where else?) makes some good points on this http://www.theguardian.com/social-care-network/2013/jan/14/means-testing-benefits-not-efficient-fair

[LJS]

ahhh, those wonderful SNP myths. Here's the timeline....

1. Alex says "I'm against the bedroom tax".

2. SLAB bate him, saying "abolish it then. Oh, you can't, can you?"

3. Alex says "yes I can, I'm just not going to, that's all".

4. SLAB says "oh, so you're for it really then?"

5. Alex says "no, I'm against it. I'm going to abolish it, but I'll do nothing to abolish it".

6. SLAB says "that's because you can't".

7. Alex: "yes I can".

8. SLAB: "no you can't".

9. Alex: "yes I can".

10. SLAB: "do it then".

11. Alex: "but i don't know if I'm allowed to".

12. SLAB: "but you said you could".

13. Alex: "I can, but I'm not sure, which is why i'm doing nothing".

14. SLAB: "why not ask Dave then?"

15. Alex: "I'm the Scottish first minister, and I bow down to no one".

16. SLAB: "so do it then".

17. Alex: "I'm not sure if Dave will let me".

18. SLAB: "As you don't know your arse from your elbow, Alex, and because you're such a weakling that won't ask, Alex, shall we ask for you?"

19. Alex: "I'm the first Minister, and I don't need to ask."

20. SLAB: "so you can't do it then."

21. Alex: "yes I can".

22. SLAB: "no you can't".

23. Alex: "yes I can".

24. SLAB: "no you can't".

25. Alex: "will you nice people of SLAB ask Dave for me? I can't be seen to be weak".

26. SLAB: "OK, OK, because you're a weakling we'll ask Dave for you"

<meanwhile 2 years have passed, and Scottish people have been fucked over for 2 years by Alex's fear of looking weak>

27. SLAB: "hey Alex, Dave says 'yes'".

28. Alex: "I'll abolish the Bedroom Tax, cos that's what a nice man I am".

But yeah, Alex was stopped from doing anything about the bedroom tax for years within his own majority SNP govt by SLAB. PMSL.

So, absolutely nothing here alters the fact that SNP (who you hate) + Devolution (which you think was a massive mistake) = no bedroom tax in Scotland

Meanwhile in England....

[kaosmark2]

First & foremost, they walk the left wing talk much more than they walk the left wing walk.

They are too much like the other main parties, too much central control over policy, candidate selection & increasingly more & more career politicians.

I also think they painted too rosy a picture of life straight after independence and made a number of ill- judged tactical decisions throughout the campaign.

I also believed they have largely missed a great opportunity to build a broad independence movement on the back of all the grass roots stuff largely because they are terrified to lose control.

I utterly agree with these criticisms you have and they cover most of my issues with the SNP. I don't think they're much worse than most other British political parties, but it bothers me that there have been claims that they're substantially better/different. They're just another version of what we already have.

[eFestivals]

Neil, we`ve done this mate. I honestly think that you already backed down ( a bit ) on this. Check out " discretionary housing payments "

check out that Alex did nothing for 2 years about something he was so absolutely against? Why do I have to check out what I know is true?

Meanwhile, the SNP have supported the bedroom tax at Westminster by not voting against it.

There's no excuses for that. Saying "we've abolished it in Scotland" is vacuous bollocks, because until Westminster is funding that abolishion it's being done with money taken from elsewhere in Scotland - most likely from the poorest, as that's been the case with everything else St Alex has done.

Help the poor by robbing the poor - is SNP policy in the minds of those like you who think the SNP left-wing. Impoverish the poor to benefit the middle classes is the true reality of the SNP's Scotland.

Edited December 31, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

What do you think Neil, now you know a bit more about him, would he get your vote ?

It's not a consideration I'd need to make unless I lived in his constituency. Is it a consideration you need to make because you live in his constituency?

That's because he's an irrelevance in an Westminster election unless he's a candidate in your own constituency. You'd know that if you've worked out what devolution is all about.

[eFestivals]

To " blame " Scotland for a huge number of Torie MP`s getting voted into the UK Parliament is, at best, mis-leading.

PMSL - who's said that, or anything like that?

But i'll happily blame Scotland if there's a tory govt, because in FPTP the voting in all constituencies effects the voting in all other constituencies, and the overall result is made up from the results in each seat.

From the polls, Scotland clearly wants to vote itself politically impotent, and to vote tories into power at Westminster.

If that's not really what Scotland wants, Scotland has to show with it's voting that's not what it wants.

The choice of Scotland is the outcome of the result.

Just as with 2010, Scotland controls the outcome of the result - a rather inconvenient fact to the fact-free-ers who falsely claim Scotland has always been politically impotent at Westminster.

[eFestivals]

Info on the Poll Tax been released this morning. Tories wanted to " trailblaze "the new tax in Scotland.

... at the request of people in Scotland.

Don't go forgetting that part of things, because the whole truth is important if you are a pursuer of truth.

The poll tax was a wrong policy. When and where it got implemented if fuck all to do with anything, apart from that chip on your shoulder.

[eFestivals]

Neil, I won't even dignify this Bollox with a reply.

...oh, I just have.

like you just have persuaded people to vote SNP.

QED.

[eFestivals]

Alternatively, despite the constant narrative from Neil & Labour, voting in a whopping 41 Labour mp's did us....what good exactly?

Just wait and see what happens when you don't vote Labour, and see what good that does you.

Edited December 31, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

1: the Scottish parliament currently has no power to raise income tax, other than the basic rate

Factually incorrect. Perhaps check your facts?

2: the SNP, to the best of my knowledge gave no commitment either way on the top rate of tax after independence.

If a party has a policy of change it states that policy.

If a party has a policy of no change it announces no policy.

3: the SNP voted against the removal of the 50p rate & have said they would support a move to reintroduce it

Nicola has said she's "minded" to support it - which means she hasn't made up her mind.

But don't let that stop you presenting false facts.

If any of the above statements are incorrect, please supply evidence to support this.

"because Neil says so" does not count as evidence.

evidence-free assertions by you require absolute proof in response? PMSL.

We've been here already, and you don't accept irrefutable evidence even when the evidence is St Alex's own doings. Or are you now admitting that Alex says that Scotland's economy is more fucked than the whole-UKs (and rUK's)?

1. Scotland has long had the ability to vary all income tax rates, not just the basic rate.

(tho due to the SNP not doing so, HMRC has 'retired' the software to do it to save money that was being wasted pointlessly, meaning it can't now happen instantly).

What Scotland did not have was the ability to vary one tax band and not the others.

2. Well done, you did manage to be correct here in part - tho you also managed to invent a fantasy inference, and so made yourself wrong.

3. the SNP have not said they'll support a 50% rate at Westminster.

So you scored just 0.5 out of three. It's a good job you Scots know about your parliament and politicians, eh?

[eFestivals]

I feel debate is better served by someone correcting the above.

Debate is best served by debating. Perhaps try it some time rather than run away or show me some squirrels?

I gave you list of things where it's certain that the SNP are to the right of Labour. These were very significant things, too.

Perhaps you can give me a list of things where the SNP is to the left of Labour, which also state who has lost out (or will lose out) for these "left" things?

Because there are a number of areas where i have doubts & concerns about them.

Does them not being left wing at all concern you?

Does them being to the right of Labour concern you?

Does your vote putting the tories in power concern you?

First & foremost, they walk the left wing talk much more than they walk the left wing walk. this is not to say that I agree with most of Neil's preposterous assertions. I think they have taken the view that being seen as competent in Government will reap rewards. this requires them not to do anything too "radical"

Playing the middle ground, you mean?

Like another party? But without the left commitments of that other party?

Edited December 31, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

For some reason this thread has recently degenerated into a who is more left? lab or SNP competition.

This thread is mirroring Scottish political discussion.

Those who hate Labour or who say its dead say that the SNP are more to the left than Labour.

I say: prove it with policy comparisons.

Here, just as in other places I read, has the SNP supporters run away from that comparison, or has grand statements made ("we're anti-austerity") without the background substance of reality ... you know, the magic money tree.

Well actually, we know the reason, rather than respond to the substance of my criticisms of the Labour Party, Neil decided to deflect it by trying desperately to show that the SNP were to the right of Labour in a number of areas. this meant he did not have to address the areas where Labour have clearly moved to the right , particularly immigration & benefits.

Labour is far from perfect. We can spend all day agreeing on that one.

However, it's not moved to the right on immigration at all (why do you think it has? ) - tho Scottish public opinion (just as with England) would like it to.

Benefits have to be paid for. The simple fact is that it pissing money up the wall on the unemployed is not a popular policy anywhere in the country. Until you show me the magic money tree the wonderful SNP offer nothing different.

I'm asking you to show me where the SNP are to the left of Labour - with the costings and where they impact, not just grand uncosted wants.

You know, like the wonderful "left" policy of free uni, which benefits most the middle classes and is paid for by the poorest - so not left wing at all.

You know, like the wonderful "left" policy of free prescriptions, which benefits ONLY the middle classes (cos the poor got them free already) and is paid for by the poorest - so not left wing at all.

You know, like the wonderful "left" policy of free home care for the elderly, which benefits ONLY the middle classes (cos the poor got them free already) and is paid for by the poorest - so not left wing at all.

Another of his tactics & this has been going on for a long time is to portray all the universally provided, non means tested freebies we get in Scotland ( personal care for the elderly, eye tests, Uni education, prescriptions) as essentially a subsidy from the poor to the middle classes & therefore rather right wing

An absolutely true assertion, as shown by the real actual facts.

Robbing from the poor to give to the middle classes.

However, as a student of politics, he should be well aware that universality was for many years a central principle for the left and to describe it as right wing is ( as with many of his positions) crass & over-simplistic.

I'm well aware, more-so than you.

Universality is great, but not when it's paid for by only the poor - which has been the fact of these policies.

He should also be aware that when you means test things a significant number of the "most deserving" fail to claim them.

And you should be aware that free uni has fewer poor access uni than via paid-for uni. Cos those are the facts.

I can't for the life of me work out why that's happening, but happening it is - and dismissing a truth is one for the stupid only.

My inclination is that, if we can, we should maintain universality and use the taxation system to address the obvious issues with us giving free things to rich people. Of course the Scottish government has not had the power to do this (even if they had the balls to do so)

The SG has the power to do this. It's chosen not to.

I'm not trying to claim that it has all of the same levers of power as Westminster - only indie would give you that, and indie is something Scotland does not want - but to claim impotence is bullshit.

When Scotland does have the powers, the SNP preferred option is to do nothing and instead use the issue to create division with England, for their future political benefit while the Scottish people get fucked over.

The SNP do not even try to represent the Scottish people, they represent only their indie dream and they don't care who suffers for it.

[eFestivals]

So, absolutely nothing here alters the fact that SNP (who you hate) + Devolution (which you think was a massive mistake) = no bedroom tax in Scotland

but only after 2 years of the SNP playing the issue to create divisions WHILE MAKING SCOTS SUFFER UNNECESSARILY!!!!!

If they are really the good guys, why are they fucking over people's lives for the fun of it?

The question that you never answer, because it leads you to the truth.

Meanwhile in England....

The UK is ruled by tories. I don't pretend that it's not.

The UK will still be ruled by tories if Scotland votes SNP, and you won't be able to pretend that it's not.

-------

I'm highly amused at all the yes-ers laughing at Labour and stating how the tories managed to make them the fall guys for the indyref.

Like so many Scottish issues, the thinking stops for the very simple at the very simple.

Who had been voting Labour? The Scottish people.

So what has really been fucked over is the political power of the Scots. Those people are laughing at their own disenfranchisement.

Divide and rule. The divide is now in place, and the tory rule comes in May.

[eFestivals]

I utterly agree with these criticisms you have and they cover most of my issues with the SNP. I don't think they're much worse than most other British political parties, but it bothers me that there have been claims that they're substantially better/different. They're just another version of what we already have.

Pretty much spot on!

The main parties - including UKIP and the SNP (but not greens) - are all neoliberal parties.

The main parties - including UKIP and the SNP (but not greens) - all try to play the electorate prior to elections by pretending themselves as something different to what they really are.

They all use popularism for what they shout about, and hope that people won't look too closely at the things they don't shout about.

The difference with the SNP to those others is that they shout about things they have no intention of doing. The shouting is about highlighting 'difference' with the rest of the UK, and by implementing a policy they make the issue - and so the ability to shout about difference - go away.

Which is precisely why they bang on about social justice, but then have to be held to the flame to actually implement a policy of social justice.

(they've only had one policy of social justice, and action only happened because of SLAB pisstaking of Alex's inaction).