The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

Agreed about the tax threshold and minimum wage. My point is that NS is going in the right direction with this

You can't agree and then say the opposite. That's idiotic.

If Nicola wants to help the poor, then of the two only the minimum wage will do it.

But she wants the tax threshold and not the minimum wage, so she can help "hard working families" (really: the middle classes) and not the poor.

She doesn't want to help the poor. It's clear from all SNP policies that hurt the poor &/or benefit the better-than-poor.

and it would be interesting to see where she would go with the minimum wage.

shame we won't get to find out.

Cos i'd be happy to bet she'd do nothing with it, on the basis that she claims she needs more levers of power to make a meaningful difference.

All the powers stack up, and they're never quite enough for the SNP to do what they've said. How odd.

" Her " staff are now on the living wage. Any changes ( increase ) for Scottish Workers ( down the line ) would surely put pressure on Westminster so in theory a higher rate for all. I believe this would be a good thing

Better minimum wages would be a good thing, but the SNP won't succeed with influencing England on that. If you vote to marginalise yourself from the mainstream process, then marginalised is what you are.

Meanwhile, those better wages have to come out of the block grant at the expense of something else. Do the SNP ever clearly state what that something else is?

Edited December 31, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

Almost party time so just wanted to wish everyone all the very best for the New Year when it comes. I have really enjoyed all the Indy debate on here so a big thank you to you all and I wish you all good health and happiness for the New Year.

Oh and happy festivaling in 2015

All the best to you & yours comfy. & to everyone else who has contributed to this lively (my phone tried to change that to lovely!) & forthright debate. I'm sure we have all learnt a great deal in the process.

A little historical footnote. New year's eve (or hogmanay or auld year's nicht) & New years day (ne'erday) used to be far more important than ecksmass in Scotland!

Indeed when my mother was a wee girl (late 1920's) her father got a full day's holiday at New year but only a half day at Xmas. Frankly, I relate more to celebrating the end of one year & the start of another than the alleged birth of a baby with mythical powers.

Drink reshponshibbbbly

Edited December 31, 2014 by LJS

[eFestivals]

I largely agree, but Labour are more pro-immigration and EU in government that they are in opposition.

I'd also argue it's their job to be centre-left. They haven't been substantially left wing for decades. The problem is they're right-of-centre.

There's another case of double standards going on in this debate - where the SNP are allowed to have rhetoric they don't mean, but other parties are not.

The simple fact is, in both England and Scotland, no one loves a benefit cheat.

And so Labour have to say they'll be tough on benefits, to keep those people on side. And in fact, because of the general political narrative (true or not), they have to be claim to be tougher to get the same level of trust, because there's a perception that they're weak on benefit claimants.

Labour's actual stated policies are at worst the same as the tories. There's a number of places were they're clearly less-nasty than the tories; and so the reality is that they won't be tougher than the tories on claimants (tho i'm not suggesting they'll be a push-over).

Likewise, with immigration. How they are being tough when they're saying they'll do nothing to stop any immigrant coming here who ight come here now? Their "tough" is merely just a change in the advertising rules for jobs.

Meanwhile, everywhere in the UK is clearly anti-immigrant, and if they want people to vote for them it's a subject they have to have a policy on, even if it's a tiny weeny policy (which it is).

[LJS]

You can't agree and then say the opposite. That's idiotic.

If Nicola wants to help the poor, then of the two only the minimum wage will do it.

But she wants the tax threshold and not the minimum wage, so she can help "hard working families" (really: the middle classes) and not the poor.

She doesn't want to help the poor. It's clear from all SNP policies that hurt the poor &/or benefit the better-than-poor.

shame we won't get to find out.

Cos i'd be happy to bet she'd do nothing with it, on the basis that she claims she needs more levers of power to make a meaningful difference.

All the powers stack up, and they're never quite enough for the SNP to what they've said. How odd.

Better minimum wages would be a good thing, but the SNP won't succeed with influencing England on that. If you vote to marginalise yourself from the mainstream process, then marginalised is what you are.

Meanwhile, those better wages have to come out of the block grant at the expense of something else. Do the SNP ever clearly state what that something else is?

All the things you lambast the Snp for not doing cost money & that money has to come from somewhere. Yet again you are so blinded by your hatred of th SNP that you are incapable of simply saying..."that is a good thing"

[eFestivals]

All the things you lambast the Snp for not doing cost money & that money has to come from somewhere. Yet again you are so blinded by your hatred of th SNP that you are incapable of simply saying..."that is a good thing"

Yep, the money has to come from somewhere - so a policy is not a policy without a costs plan.

It's a good thing to want to raise the threshold. It's a far better thing to want to raise the minimum wage.

Nicola wants to do the less-good thing.

She could help the poorest, but she doesn't want to.

This is one of the more important points i'm trying to get you to wake up to.

She's playing the numbers game in the exact same way as Labour do. Votes over good policies. A recognition of the real political feelings of people, rather than a left-leaning myth.

But unlike Labour, she gets votes via divisions and not agreement with the people of the UK, so she'll be damned sure to stoke up those divisions, and we'll all be the worse for it.

[LJS]

Yep, the money has to come from somewhere - so a policy is not a policy without a costs plan.

It's a good thing to want to raise the threshold. It's a far better thing to want to raise the minimum wage.

Nicola wants to do the less-good thing.

She could help the poorest, but she doesn't want to.

This is one of the more important points i'm trying to get you to wake up to.

She's playing the numbers game in the exact same way as Labour do. Votes over good policies. A recognition of the real political feelings of people, rather than a left-leaning myth.

But unlike Labour, she gets votes via divisions and not agreement with the people of the UK, so she'll be damned sure to stoke up those divisions, and we'll all be the worse for it.

I think that is a somewhat simplified version of events. I'm pretty sure she wanted both & a whole lot more. My understanding is Westminster would not give up on the tax threshold. So I don't think it's a case of her preferring one over the other.

& although, of course, raising the minimum wage is an effective way to combat poverty & inequality, so is having total control of income tax including personal allowances.

But, hey don't let me stop you twisting things to fit in with your obsessive hatred of the SNP.

[LJS]

comfortablynumb1910, on 31 Dec 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

Nope, party policy! Right wing mostly and populist occasionally.

Neil you have finished the year with a piece of comedy gold - you don't pass comment on the SNP leaders ... only their policies

I'll need to go i've just soiled myself

[LJS]

and yet the vast majority of Scots think it's been adhered to.

Only 30% think it falls short of what was promised.

really?

those who say the proposals are ‘about right’, 26%, are still outnumbered (albeit less so than in YouGov’s poll) by those (30%) who think they ‘do not go far enough’.

so yes your 30% is correct but it is higher than those who think it is about right

pluck a little figure here & a lttle figure there & you can "prove" anything you want

[LJS]

[LJS]

don't know if you've come across this site, Neil (& anyone else)

http://electionforecast.co.uk/

it's quite fun to fiddle around with

[eFestivals]

I think that is a somewhat simplified version of events. I'm pretty sure she wanted both & a whole lot more.

Yeah, it's ooor oil, yeah?

So surely Nicola would want 'ooor oil' for Scotland, right?

Except she doesn't.

The SNP did not ask within the Smith Commission for the oil revenue to be transferred to Scotland.

Why would that be? It's been the centre of everything the SNP have said for over 30 years. It's the very reason why Scotland should be independent in the view of the SNP.

It's why Scotland would be a roaring success, that would forever after shame the English.

And yet they don't want Scotland's central natural asset to be Scottish owned.

How odd.

Perhaps there's a reason why?

[eFestivals]

really?

those who say the proposals are ‘about right’, 26%, are still outnumbered (albeit less so than in YouGov’s poll) by those (30%) who think they ‘do not go far enough’.

so yes your 30% is correct but it is higher than those who think it is about right

pluck a little figure here & a lttle figure there & you can "prove" anything you want

Yes, really.

Via that poll, only 30% of Scots could possibly be thinking that they've been stitched up over 'the vow'.

But actually, it's probably far fewer who think they've been stitched up. There's over 20% who are indy in all circumstances, and so all of those would be thinking Smith didn't go far enough even if they think Smith is everything that was promised.

[eFestivals]

Neil you have finished the year with a piece of comedy gold - you don't pass comment on the SNP leaders ... only their policies

I'll need to go i've just soiled myself

Indy is neither left or right, right or wrong. It's an idea, that a person sides with or doesn't.

As I've told you a thousand times, I could support a Scottish indie plan, but I couldn't support Scotland being sold down the river, not even when it's a Scotsman selling out his own countrymen.

It's the plan I have an issue with, with the duplicitous Salmond leading the line and leading with lies.

Funnily enough, your countrymen had all of the same issues.

Perhaps you should respect their views, or are the views of Scottish people worthless towards the idea of Scottish independence?

[eFestivals]

Scotland, the country that can't bring itself to vote for anything radical, but where the insular believe that two ideas rejected by Scotland will be the leading light to take them to a glorious future.

One day you'll wake up to the fact that you're scaring the horses rather than converting.

[eFestivals]

don't know if you've come across this site, Neil (& anyone else)

http://electionforecast.co.uk/

it's quite fun to fiddle around with

I don't think I've come across that specific site before, but there's at least two others doing the same thing.

Does your "fun" include you seeing just how easily it tumbles from a Labour win to a tory win?

Does your "fun" include seeing how Scotland stands a strong chance of ensuring a tory win?

Will the tories ruling over you be fun, too?

[eFestivals]

Well, as Scotland doesn't want to have anything of the oil after all, perhaps the SNP need a new and different slogan?

How about: Scottish ebola for Scottish people

Happy new year.

[Comfy Bean]

Happy New Year everyone

Lang may yer lum reek !

[Comfy Bean]

All the best to you & yours comfy. & to everyone else who has contributed to this lively (my phone tried to change that to lovely!) & forthright debate. I'm sure we have all learnt a great deal in the process.

A little historical footnote. New year's eve (or hogmanay or auld year's nicht) & New years day (ne'erday) used to be far more important than ecksmass in Scotland!

Indeed when my mother was a wee girl (late 1920's) her father got a full day's holiday at New year but only a half day at Xmas. Frankly, I relate more to celebrating the end of one year & the start of another than the alleged birth of a baby with mythical powers.

Drink reshponshibbbbly - Failed !!!!!

Thank you LJS and the same to you and yours. Think it was the 70`s before New Year was a public holiday in England but as you say, it`s always been a big thing in Scotland. I can still remember all the neighbours coming round to ours and us young yins being taken round the streets for what seemed like days. Lots of singing and whisky ( for the adults ) good times. Although it`s changed a bit, we still make a big deal of it round our way - any excuse !

I also remember everyone giving each other a lump of coal when " first footing ". Was / is that an Ayrshire thing or did you do that in LJS land ?

2014 really was a belter in Scotland when you look back on everything that happened.

[Comfy Bean]

Funnily enough, your countrymen had all of the same issues.

Perhaps you should respect their views, or are the views of Scottish people worthless towards the idea of Scottish independence?

Sadly sir, your countrymen also hold different political views to your own*. As you rightly say, we need to respect everyones views. Whether they agree with us or not.

*I`m assuming here that your voting " intentions " aren`t with the Tories for this year`s GE.

[Comfy Bean]

Yeah, it's ooor oil, yeah?

So surely Nicola would want 'ooor oil' for Scotland, right?

Except she doesn't.

The SNP did not ask within the Smith Commission for the oil revenue to be transferred to Scotland.

Why would that be? It's been the centre of everything the SNP have said for over 30 years. It's the very reason why Scotland should be independent in the view of the SNP.

It's why Scotland would be a roaring success, that would forever after shame the English.

And yet they don't want Scotland's central natural asset to be Scottish owned.

How odd.

Perhaps there's a reason why?

Honestly not sure what you are getting at here. You have been quick to ctiticise the SNP for " looking " like getting the price of oil wrong for 2016. For sure it looks as if they are way out but plenty of water to go under the bridge yet. Sadly, in 2015, the UK Govt will see a drop in revenue which is the last thing we need. Anyway..... Ii presume NS wasn`t scrapping for oil revs in November as it would have ( i think ) affected the block grant. Surely you would credit her for looking at the current state of the oil price. You cant have it both ways

[Comfy Bean]

I don't think I've come across that specific site before, but there's at least two others doing the same thing.

Does your "fun" include you seeing just how easily it tumbles from a Labour win to a tory win?

Does your "fun" include seeing how Scotland stands a strong chance of ensuring a tory win?

Will the tories ruling over you be fun, too?

Just noticed that you have had a subtle change in direction here. Are you now predicting a Tory win in the GE. I believe some on here were predicting this could be a consequence of a no vote ( another Tory Govt ) but you laughing at their sillyness and pointing at the Polls. Am i getting mixed up or have you changed your opinion ?

Unfortunately, I do know that I was concerned all along that in the heat of battle Ed and Ed will be no match for Dave and that the middle englanders will hear enough of what they like to get the Tories in ( again ). Hope I`m wrong.

[Comfy Bean]

You can't agree and then say the opposite. That's idiotic.

If Nicola wants to help the poor, then of the two only the minimum wage will do it.

But she wants the tax threshold and not the minimum wage, so she can help "hard working families" (really: the middle classes) and not the poor.

She doesn't want to help the poor. It's clear from all SNP policies that hurt the poor &/or benefit the better-than-poor.

Oh Neil

The article I was referring to was headlined " Sturgeon calls for powers over minimum wage to be devolved ".

Had a quick check back and in your post I was agreeing with, you mentioned the plight of all the low paid part time staff who don`t get paid enough to give a shit about tax thresholds. That was the bit I was agreeing with. In that spirit, I posted a link that explained how 640 of the lowest paid Scottish Govt staff will be receiving a modest wage increase as NS has ensured all " her " staff get the living wage. I had wanted to comment on how she was heading in the " right direction ".

Turns out you decided to ignore this bit and instead somehow manage to use it as a stick to beat NS with

[Comfy Bean]

Is this the best thing you have to hang Jim on? As it's the attack you made, I guess it is.

It's pretty weak, against what the article says. It's nothing about "pandering to bigots" by the look of things.

The new law is far from perfect but it was / is a step in the right direction. There have been people put out of grounds and it does attempt to deal with the songs that get sung on the buses and trains later on Saturday nights that affect us all and cause no end of problems. I think it will improve over time with case law, tweaks etc.

The article never said he was pandering to the bigots ( on both sides ) that is my view.

Anywayz........ " is this the best thing to hang Jim on " ? I think you are winding me up

I have made 2 posts on Murphy. I had to re-post one of them as I had forgotten the link. Turns out that was the only part of the post(s) that you read

I had mentioned his own expenses claims but also how he will be tough on benefits cheats.

Also that he will be tough on immigration but himself emigrated to South Africa during apartheid.

I pasted in a paragraph from a commons motion signed by Tony Benn that described him as intolerant and dictorial.

I also questioned his views on the war in Iraq, Trident, tuition fees ( mentioned in the motion ) and we had a wee bit around his views on Israel and his role with Douglas Murray and the Henry Jackson Society. They are the ones with the " interesting " views on torture that I mentioned.

So, in summary, one or two other issues had already been raised to " hang him on " as you put it. There is no doubt more but in those post I also mentioned Findlay as an alternative but conceded Irn Bru Murphy was more likely to win back votes ( i was trying to be even handed ). I had asked though if this was right ? and if anyone thought that him not being an MSP was relevant.

[LJS]

Thank you LJS and the same to you and yours. Think it was the 70`s before New Year was a public holiday in England but as you say, it`s always been a big thing in Scotland. I can still remember all the neighbours coming round to ours and us young yins being taken round the streets for what seemed like days. Lots of singing and whisky ( for the adults ) good times. Although it`s changed a bit, we still make a big deal of it round our way - any excuse !

I also remember everyone giving each other a lump of coal when " first footing ". Was / is that an Ayrshire thing or did you do that in LJS land ?

2014 really was a belter in Scotland when you look back on everything that happened.

I think giving a lump of coal is Scotland wide though probably more common in Ayrshire Fife & other mining areas. That having been said, when I was very young on Glasgow just about every house was heated wi coal fires. I remember freezing while waiting for my dad to get the bloody fire lit!

[LJS]

Indy is neither left or right, right or wrong. It's an idea, that a person sides with or doesn't.

As I've told you a thousand times, I could support a Scottish indie plan, but I couldn't support Scotland being sold down the river, not even when it's a Scotsman selling out his own countrymen.

It's the plan I have an issue with, with the duplicitous Salmond leading the line and leading with lies.

Funnily enough, your countrymen had all of the same issues.

Perhaps you should respect their views, or are the views of Scottish people worthless towards the idea of Scottish independence?

I respect everyone's views*... even yours. You do not appear to do the same... unless I mistake the meaning of the word respect

*at the risk of being pedantic it's not really the views that i respect but the right of people to hold them. Because i don't really respect the views many UKip voters which are often racist, homophobic & sexist but I do (grudgingly) respect their right to hold these views (even if they are dicks)