The Dirty Independence Question

[Comfy Bean]

Found the Mansion Tax => Scotish nurses 'announcement' amusing. Don't know what Murphy was thinking - sounds like he's done this off the cuff. Or is it a ploy to make him look separate to the rUK labour party?

It was a strange one Gary for sure. It let John Murhpy say " I`m in charge " but apart from that it was a bit shambolic for his first effort. We have had constant reminders on how the Barnett formula works up here over the last wee while so I`m not sure who he thought was going to believe this nonsense.

A Labour spokesmen has now had to come out and say that the " overwhelming majority " of any money raised would be spent in England. Didn`t realise that 4 out of 5 "mansions" that would be affected are in the London area but I suppose that makes sense. We`ve had a lot on here about how SNP voters are impacting on the General Election. How much damage could Murphy have done. He`s potentially pissed off a whole load of English potential Labour voters making us out to be subsidy junkies. I`m waiting on Edwina coming out again with her " I`m fed up funding the Scots luxurious lifestyle " line again

Did you also note that he is saying...however many extra nurses the SNP pledge, I`ll pledge 1000 more ( with the Londoners money ) before he even knows the SNP numbers ( on nurses ).

I had a wee chuckle to myself wondering what Neil would have had to say if Salmond had come out with this.....

Scottish Labour leader Jim Murphy has rejected claims he is trying to "buy" Scottish votes with money "expropriated" from London.

Mr Murphy has pledged that a UK-wide "mansion tax" would allow a future Labour government to create 1,000 new nursing posts in Scotland.

He said most of the money raised would come from London and the south east.

Labour MP Diane Abbott accused him of "unscrupulous" behaviour, but Mr Murphy insisted his plan was "sensible".

Mr Murphy compared the plan to spend money levied on English homeson Scottish nurses with the way the oil wealth from the North Sea was shared around the UK.

"It's part of pooling and sharing your resources across these islands, it's pretty sensible," he told BBC Radio 4's World at One programme, and pointed out the property tax was Labour Party policy.

'Tax' on Londoners

Labour has pledged to impose what it calls a "mansion tax" - a levy on homes worth more than £2m across the UK to fund the NHS - if leader Ed Miliband wins the general election.

In his first major policy announcement, Mr Murphy said he would use Scotland's share of the money, allocated under the Barnett formula, to pay for extra nursing staff, if Labour wins May's UK General Election and then the Scottish Labour Party wins the Holyrood election in 2016.

But Ms Abbott, the Labour MP for Hackney who hopes to run for London mayor, told the World at One she was very surprised that Mr Murphy was "making these boasts".

Analysis by James Cook, Scotland Correspondent

With phrases like "fiscally vindictive" and "highly unscrupulous" being hurled around, it's clear that a political row is playing out which is as bitter as it is old.

It is being contested on familiar turf: does the rest of the UK, and particularly wealthy London, subsidise Scotland?

The front pages of the London editions of The Times and The Daily Telegraph both concentrate on a "pledge" from the Scottish Labour leader Jim Murphy, made as he kicked off his campaign for the general election.

"Mansion tax to fund nursing in Scotland" is The Times' headline. "Labour tax on 'wealthy English' to fund nurses in Scotland" is the Telegraph's take.

Believe it or not, those headlines will suit Mr Murphy. The new leader of the Scottish Labour Party has a tough task.

Read more from James

"Jim Murphy is saying that he's going to be recruiting nurses from day one on the basis of this mansion tax. You can't recruit people on the basis that money that hasn't even been raised yet," she said.

She added: "Jim Murphy is jumping the gun in a highly unscrupulous way."

While supporting the mansion tax "in principle", Ms Abbott said a lot of discussion was needed as to how to implement it fairly, warning it amounted to a "tax on Londoners".

She said the policy would affect people who bought homes many years ago which have since increased substantially in value, while the wealthy would try to "evade" the tax.

"That's all got to be thought through - Jim Murphy isn't waiting for that. He just thinks he can buy Scottish votes with money expropriated from London," she said.

'Cash cow'

Mr Murphy - who Ms Abbott mistakenly called 'John' at the start of the interview - hit back by saying he did not have to consult Ms Abbott or clear things with Labour leader Ed Miliband over what he does in the Scottish Labour Party.

"When it comes to issues that are devolved - so health and education in Scotland - I am in charge. I am the leader of the Scottish Labour Party."

Reserved issued such as foreign affairs and welfare, he added , were the responsibility of the Labour leader, who he said he looked forward to campaigning alongside for a Labour victory at the general election.

Ms Abbott, he suggested, should get behind Labour Policy "rather than either forgetting my name or attacking my approach to what I do in Scotland".

Jim Murphy MP became the new leader of the Scottish Labour Party in December last year

Conservative Party chairman Grant Shapps said Mr Murphy's comments showed "once again that Ed Miliband simply does not command the respect of his party".

A Labour spokesman said the "overwhelming majority" of money raised would be spent in England, "but as with any UK-wide tax, Scotland will receive a share of the proceeds under the Barnett formula".

"It is up to the Scottish Government how to spend this revenue," they added.

Scottish National Party MP Angus Robertson said: "Fickle attempts to win back trust by playing an arbitrary numbers game with nursing staff and proposing oil funds that Labour should have supported decades ago are wide off the mark - and people will see straight through them."

The policy announcement, made by Mr Murphy on Monday, has also faced criticism from some other London-based politicians.

Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, described the plan as "fiscally vindictive" to the south east of England and amounted to trying to "bribe the Scots to vote Labour", while Labour's Dame Tessa Jowell said London should not be treated as a "cash cow".

[Comfy Bean]

it's pretty funny to see the unionists raging against the unionist idea that Murphy is stating - that the richer parts of the country subsidies the poorer parts.

And it's also funny to see nat-Scots welcoming the extra money, as an admission of Scotland's subsidy status.

What no one is addressing is that the mansion tax itself is a nuts idea, even tho its rooted in the good one of the resource-hungry wealthy underpaying towards local facilities.

We need a return to a ratings system, either for land or for land & property. Anything else gives those at the top a freebie.

" Scotland`s subsidy status "

As John says ( see above )...oor oil wealth is spent by all they loaded london types on fancy trains `n that ( maybe not a direct quote )

Anyway. I agree with you on the need to return to some sort of ratings system. I may have mentioned before that in Scotland the Govt agreed a universal council tax reduction scheme with the 32 Authorities. It`s fairer and less complicated as it means when folks move across different areas they don`t miss out on money they are entitled to due to various different complicated systems.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30691915

[Comfy Bean]

This is the part of things i've yet to see any separatist supporter acknowledge for the UK. They believe that Scotland has an inalienable right to always get what it wants no matter the cost onto others.

I`ve noticed your use of this " separatist " banter. Will you use it in the EU ref or is it only for us Jocks ?

Next you`ll be saying we are all in it together

I certainly feel separate from the Bullingdon Boys but that has nothing to do with living in Scotland.

I think Scotland is perfectly capable of being an Independent Country but it has feck all to do with just wanting to be separate from the rest of the UK.

Edited January 7, 2015 by comfortablynumb1910

[eFestivals]

Edited January 8, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

We have had constant reminders on how the Barnett formula works up here over the last wee while so I`m not sure who he thought was going to believe this nonsense.

So despite the reminders you've failed to understand how it work.

Murphy has it right for how it works. The only thing he's got wrong is that the extra money that would come to Scotland from London would not be spent on nurses by the SNP.

The SNP will spend it buying more middle class votes, exactly as they have the other times they've robbed the poor to give to the doing-OKs.

A Labour spokesmen has now had to come out and say that the " overwhelming majority " of any money raised would be spent in England.

well of course it would.

Scotland gets a proportion of UK budget roughly equivalent to its share of the UK population.

We`ve had a lot on here about how SNP voters are impacting on the General Election.

I do hope you're noting how that impact increases the chance of Scotland being ruled by tories.

I had a wee chuckle to myself wondering what Neil would have had to say if Salmond had come out with this.....

Salmond already has, on corp tax ("3% less than the UK rate, no matter what the UK rate is").

I'm wondering how come you never noticed?

But now you know that both Murphy and Salmond are morons of the same level, what does that tell you about the real state of Scottish politics? And more particularly, the political thinking of Scots?

[eFestivals]

" Scotland`s subsidy status "

I refer you to the Scottish Govt's own analysis of the Scottish economy.

As John says ( see above )...oor oil wealth is spent by all they loaded london types on fancy trains `n that ( maybe not a direct quote )

If the Scottish Govt included that spend within it's own accounts rather than removed it, an even worse state of the Scottish economy would be revealed.

The Scottish economy is fucked - subsidy status - with such 'London spends' excluded, as stated fully and clearly by Scotland's own govt within its own published figures.

in Scotland the Govt agreed a universal council tax reduction scheme with the 32 Authorities.

PMSL. If you started thinking, you might be dangerous and not dumb.

Alex pretty much mirrored the Tory's England policy, so that Scots cannot point at England and say "England does things better than our own Scottish politicians do".

(the "better" there is a "better" related to real world happenings, and not a "this would be the best thing to do" better)

If Alex was able to come up with a better council funding policy to create the divisions which is his primary policy, he would have done. Because he can't create divisions on this between Scotland and England, the next most important thing to him is to not allow the Scottish people to point at a division between England and the SNP where the SNP are the baddies.

The Scottish people come 3rd to the SNP, after damage to the union and protection for the SNP.

Edited January 8, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I`ve noticed your use of this " separatist " banter.

You're not a unionist.

You've told me you're not an SNP supporter, so you're not a Nat.

You want to separate Scotland from the UK. Care to suggest a word for what that makes you?

I've seen quite a few supporters of separation take exception to being labelled via their want, but I can't work why. I'm pretty sure that the complainers can't either, but you're welcome to try comfy.

Or perhaps the why is about the half the UK's favourite Friday supper?

[Comfy Bean]

But now you know that both Murphy and Salmond are morons of the same level..................

I am glad, in your own round about way, that you have finally agreed with me about Murphy. As I said yesterday, if his early form continues, he will lose Labour votes in England never mind Scotland. The article we were discussing was also covered on the front pages by the English press and you folks don`t need to read about Labour giving London`s mansion tax to the Scottish NHS even though ( on here ) we know that this is not an accurate way of puting it.

Maybe Dave thinks that he should avoid the debates and just let Labour run around shooting themselves in the foot ( just a thought ) !

[eFestivals]

I am glad, in your own round about way, that you have finally agreed with me about Murphy.

shame you're not as open to truths yourself, to see what Salmond is.

As I said yesterday, if his early form continues, he will lose Labour votes in England never mind Scotland.

He won't lose Labour as many votes in England as Scotland's desire to vote SNP will.

It's factors like this that no one in Scotland seems to get. England will want a govt that it believes will act in England's interests, and that's impossible if the SNP are formally involved or are pulling the strings - because they have no care for England or the rest of the UK, only Scotland.

Scotland has spent the last 30 years believing that England has been choosing to fuck Scotland over and saying how wrong that is, only for Scotland to then attempt to *WILLFULLY* do what they say is wrong.

What you're not getting is that while it can be argued about whether England has fucked Scotland over or not, nothing of that (if it's happened) has been wilful. If bad things have been done to Scotland it's not because people are sat in Westminster saying "make bad things happen to Scotland".

And yet 1.5M Scots intend voting SNP, whose express purpose is to fuck England over to Scotland's advantage.

Do you think no one in England is noticing, or that nothing of that situation will factor into their own thinking?

As you might say: do you think we zip up the back?

And you lot say that Westminster operates in a bubble.

[Comfy Bean]

You're not a unionist.

You've told me you're not an SNP supporter, so you're not a Nat.

You want to separate Scotland from the UK. Care to suggest a word for what that makes you?

I've seen quite a few supporters of separation take exception to being labelled via their want, but I can't work why. I'm pretty sure that the complainers can't either, but you're welcome to try comfy.

Or perhaps the why is about the half the UK's favourite Friday supper?

OK, I`ll try. For the record, I am posting this in the full knowledge that I am wasting my time

I agree that I am not a Unionist. I`ve never been into all this Empire, wave ruling garbage. Can you please post the bit where I told you " I`m not an SNP supporter ". I don`t ever remember saying that but anyway post it up and prove me wrong.

You have missed out the rest of my post on " separatist " so once again, my point was that while I feel separate from the Bullingdon Boys I don`t feel, or wish to feel, separate from all my friends in England etc. Feeling separate from Westminster has nothing to do with me living in Scotland. I also mentioned the EU referendum and asked whether you would use the word" separatist " when the EU ref comes round ?

My feeling when it comes to Scottish Indy is not motivated by only wanting to be separate from rUK anymore than I would see myself as being separate from Spain, Canada etc. It`s nothing personal against any other Country. I just believe that Scotland is perfectly capable of running it`s own affairs and I also happen to believe that the destruction of the current Westminster ( corrupt and wasteful ) system could also prove to be a good thing for your Country.

In Scotland, we elected 1 ( one ) Tory MP and .......well you know the rest.

I fully accept that you regard me as being a " separatist " and if it paints a picture you want to paint then who am I to argue . I also think your often used quip " people like you " is an unfortunate form of words to use, especially when you don`t actually know the " people " or group of people you are referring to but as I say, each to their own.

[Comfy Bean]

And yet 1.5M Scots intend voting SNP, whose express purpose is to fuck England over to Scotland's advantage.

Do you think no one in England is noticing, or that nothing of that situation will factor into their own thinking?

As you might say: do you think we zip up the back?

And you lot say that Westminster operates in a bubble.

Neil, I don`t agree with the above word for word but.....Just reading this bit back ^^^^^^^^

Murphy is saying that Scottish Labour will use money generated from the ( London ) Mansion tax ( 4 in 5 remember ) and use it to pay for Scottish NHS nurses.

I am saying that Murphy, with this line and to be fair to him the way it has been reported on the front pages of English newspapers, COULD cost Labour votes in ENGLAND.

If the people of England are " noticing " as you claim then how is Murphy helping the Labour cause down there ?

[Comfy Bean]

in Scotland the Govt agreed a universal council tax reduction scheme with the 32 Authorities.

PMSL. If you started thinking, you might be dangerous and not dumb.

Alex pretty much mirrored the Tory's England policy, so that Scots cannot point at England and say "England does things better than our own Scottish politicians do".

(the "better" there is a "better" related to real world happenings, and not a "this would be the best thing to do" better)

If Alex was able to come up with a better council funding policy to create the divisions which is his primary policy, he would have done. Because he can't create divisions on this between Scotland and England, the next most important thing to him is to not allow the Scottish people to point at a division between England and the SNP where the SNP are the baddies.

The Scottish people come 3rd to the SNP, after damage to the union and protection for the SNP.

How exactly did Alex mirror anything when the 32 Scottish Councils agreed a single Council Tax Reduction scheme ?

From the bit of my post that you didn`t quote, I said that I regarded it as a fairer system for those people who are unfortunate enough to need help to pay their Council Tax as we have the same regs across Scotland when in England there are many different schemes.

You seem to be arguing the opposite to what I`m saying ? How can he " mirror the Tory`s England policy " when they don`t have the one policy, they have lots of different ones but Scotland introduced the same one across all the Local Authorities ???

I know you are laughing about this but I`m not understanding how you are regarding a scheme to help people in need meet their bills as a " council funding policy " ? Can you help me out with this or am I too dumb

I`m still convinced that the Scottish Govt did what was best for the folks on benefits in Scotland and that it had absolutely nothing at all to do with creating " divisions ".

Edited January 8, 2015 by comfortablynumb1910

[LJS]

ok let's dissect this typica load of bollocks...

shame you're not as open to truths yourself, to see what Salmond is.

Typlically, Neil fails to answer Comfy's point entirely and instead repeats his tired old attacks on Eck


He won't lose Labour as many votes in England as Scotland's desire to vote SNP will.

This is at best an opinion & at worst a complete guess, which is fine, except . as usual, you present it as unanswerable fact.

It's factors like this that no one in Scotland seems to get. England will want a govt that it believes will act in England's interests, and that's impossible if the SNP are formally involved or are pulling the strings - because they have no care for England or the rest of the UK, only Scotland.

Clearly it is possible for the interests of Scotland & England to coincide on some issues, so probably not complete bollocks jut a wild exaggeration.

Scotland has spent the last 30 years believing that England has been choosing to fuck Scotland over Really? I must have missed it!! and saying how wrong that is, only for Scotland to then attempt to *WILLFULLY* do what they say is wrong. Not entirely sure this makes sense - I certainly have no idea what you are on about but I'm sure it seemed terribly clever when you wrote it.

What you're not getting is that while it can be argued about whether England has fucked Scotland over or not, nothing of that (if it's happened) has been wilful. Who said otherwise? If bad things have been done to Scotland it's not because people are sat in Westminster saying "make bad things happen to Scotland".

And yet 1.5M Scots intend voting SNP, whose express purpose is to fuck England (really? where did you hear this - was it maybe from the voices in your head?) over to Scotland's advantage.

Do you think no one in England is noticing, or that nothing of that situation will factor into their own thinking? Well, its pretty sure that they are not thinking exactly what you are thinking as most of the English (in my opinion) are pretty indifferent to Scotland and not driven by a crazed personal hatred of Salmond & the SNP.

As you might say: do you think we zip up the back? we wouldn't say that

And you lot say that Westminster operates in a bubble. Yes we do & here I finally agree with you

Edited January 8, 2015 by LJS

[eFestivals]

Can you please post the bit where I told you " I`m not an SNP supporter ". I don`t ever remember saying that but anyway post it up and prove me wrong.

Sorry, perhaps a bad choice of words by me.

Many 'yes' voters spent their time endlessly telling others that they were not SNP supporters. LJS here, as an example.

Therefore a more-encompassing term needs using than just 'Nationalist' or SNP-er.

'Separatist' is the most literally accurate word I can think of, tho you're welcome to suggest anything else to me.

I don`t feel, or wish to feel, separate from all my friends in England etc.

But you're choosing to formally separate yourself from them all the same.

Feeling separate from Westminster has nothing to do with me living in Scotland.

and that is an irrelevance to your want to politically separate Scotland from the rest of the UK.

I also mentioned the EU referendum and asked whether you would use the word" separatist " when the EU ref comes round ?

Yep, because it applies no less. Those who want to separate are literally separatists.

However it's not quite the same thing. There's a greater existing feeling of cultural separation between the UK and Europe than there is England and Scotland for the obvious historical reasons, which opinion polls show as true for both countries. So because of that cultural difference, it will tend to get viewed differently sometimes.

My feeling when it comes to Scottish Indy is not motivated by only wanting to be separate from rUK anymore than I would see myself as being separate from Spain, Canada etc.

yet you desire to separate, and are therefore a separatist.

I just believe that Scotland is perfectly capable of running it`s own affairs

Oh look, another of those belief things from comfy.

As i've said myself, and countless others have too, few belioeve it's not capable of running its own affairts.

What matters is what thyose affairs actually are.

Nicola almost nailed it yesterday, when she almost followed thru with "bigger SNP Scottish-made cuts for Scottish people". English cuts aren't good enough for her, Scottish cuts will be bigger and better.

and I also happen to believe that the destruction of the current Westminster ( corrupt and wasteful ) system could also prove to be a good thing for your Country.

such a good thing that the man who doesn't want to separate does nothing except take his ball home in an unthinking strop like a toddler.

I fully accept that you regard me as being a " separatist "

that's because you are, literally!

and if it paints a picture you want to paint then who am I to argue .

it's your own chips that you're piling onto my fish.

I also think your often used quip " people like you " is an unfortunate form of words to use, especially when you don`t actually know the " people " or group of people you are referring to but as I say, each to their own.

Scots never say "zip up the back" as a way to say "they must think we're thick"?

Soz, I must have been reading the Catalonian indy campaign by mistake.

[eFestivals]

Neil, I don`t agree with the above word for word but.....Just reading this bit back ^^^^^^^^

Murphy is saying that Scottish Labour will use money generated from the ( London ) Mansion tax ( 4 in 5 remember ) and use it to pay for Scottish NHS nurses.

I'll just say that the claim is 1,000 nurses is an accurate number for the amount of extra money Scotland should get as a result of the mansion tax, if it happens. (I've seen someone work thru the numbers, tho I couldn't repeat that calc for you here).

It's also worth noting that the mansion tax money is destined for the NHS in England and so would increase the NHS part of the block grant for Scotland ... tho whether the SNP spent it on the NHS is another thing, because their record is to rob extra NHS money for pet projects instead.

But if they do or if they don't, it's money for Scotland's NHS that the SNP cannot give Scotland' NHS without Labour - so Murphy's claim of "1000 more than the SNP" does actually stand up as sensible after all

Unlike Alex's "corp tax always 3% lower than England's".

I am saying that Murphy, with this line and to be fair to him the way it has been reported on the front pages of English newspapers, COULD cost Labour votes in ENGLAND.

If the people of England are " noticing " as you claim then how is Murphy helping the Labour cause down there ?

Murphy isn't helping down here, tho he's hurting Scotland less than Scotland voting SNP will hurt Scotland.

As i've said, it's a vote to marginalise yourself because of the principles of the party you're supporting.

[eFestivals]

How exactly did Alex mirror anything when the 32 Scottish Councils agreed a single Council Tax Reduction scheme ?

Council Tax Reduction replaced Council Tax Benefit in April 2013. Westminster driven, not Alex driven.

https://www.gov.uk/apply-council-tax-reduction

Yes, it's different in England's many greater number of councils, but agreement between just 32 is much easier.

Salmond was forced into doing something by what the tories did for England. He chose to do the same, but a countrywide scheme instead of individual.

From the bit of my post that you didn`t quote, I said that I regarded it as a fairer system for those people who are unfortunate enough to need help to pay their Council Tax as we have the same regs across Scotland when in England there are many different schemes.

so what you're saying is that when the UK has a UK-wide scheme scheme (as used to happen) that's unfair, but when Scotland has a Scotland-wide scheme that's fair?

Or perhaps you know that a common basis is always a better idea across a common community. Why was it is you wanted indy again?

I`m still convinced that the Scottish Govt did what was best for the folks on benefits in Scotland and that it had absolutely nothing at all to do with creating " divisions ".

Yeah, cos all the best ideas can only happen in Scotland, eh? There can't ever be a fgood idea from somewhere else, which is why Alex also introdes difference where he can create divides, and mirrors England where it hides scotland's faults.

Alex has introduced a common scheme, when the whole basis of the SNP's existence is that common schemes are bad, because some parts they're applied in are different. What of that laughable situation are you finding hard to intellectualise?

Edited January 9, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Typlically, Neil fails to answer Comfy's point entirely and instead repeats his tired old attacks on Eck

Comfy had no point that I was responding to.

He said it was good I'd agreed with him about Murphy (which I did by showing Salmond had done much the same). I said it was not good that he's not agreed with me about when Salmond did much the same.

But hey, you lot don't use double standards to give Alex a free-pass, do you?

This is at best an opinion & at worst a complete guess, which is fine, except . as usual, you present it as unanswerable fact.

Because I was specifically asked for my opinion and I gave my opinion in response, it didn't need couching as "this is my opinion".

The error is yours alone, in failing to follow the simple.

Clearly it is possible for the interests of Scotland & England to coincide on some issues, so probably not complete bollocks jut a wild exaggeration.

Of course it's possible. That's why i say one govt works as well as two.

The point is that the SNP have no care about whether what they put forwards works for England. They - very formally - don't give a fuck about England.

If you'd been paying attention, a recent indy campaign might have made that clear to you from their own gobs.

Not entirely sure this makes sense - I certainly have no idea what you are on about but I'm sure it seemed terribly clever when you wrote it.

it makes perfect sense. Perhaps start back at year one if having difficulties?

Who said otherwise?

Look, over there, a squirrel.

Back at what I said: the SNP wilfully doesn't give a shit about England, which makes what they do very different to anything claimed against Scotland of Westminster.

(really? where did you hear this - was it maybe from the voices in your head?)

I refer you to the SNP's constitution.

Well, its pretty sure that they are not thinking exactly what you are thinking as most of the English (in my opinion) are pretty indifferent to Scotland and not driven by a crazed personal hatred of Salmond & the SNP.

They're indifferent about Scotland, until such time as they notice that Scotland is trying to be unfair to England. Such as right now, via the SNP.

I'm not trying to claim that of everyone, but of those who are paying attention and thinking things thru.

Yes, some left-wingers in England might cheer the SNP along as a A Good thing for England, but they've failed to join up the dots. The SNP propose nothing - left wing or not - for England. They have not a single English policy, only Scottish policies.

And those Scottish policies aren't good for England either on the SNP's own basis, because they say different regions need to have different policies as common policies are bad (unless it's their own council tax thing ).

Anyone with a handful of brain cells might realise just how much some strings are being pulled. What's amazing is how Alex is making you jump up and down and you've not noticed.

we wouldn't say that

oh, so i've been talkking sense after all? I do wonder what the rest above was about, then.

Yes we do & here I finally agree with you

PMSL - talk about getting it all so very very very wrong.

You're agreeing that most indy-voters of Scotland are too bubblised to have a sensible viewpoint.

Which is true of course, as proven by the free-pass that Alex has, that you put on display at every opportunity.

And i bet that free-pass is the London creation called the oystercard.

[Comfy Bean]

Senior Blair aide John Mcternan coming in to head up Irn Bru Murphys team. He may well be a charming and honest man who will appeal to Scottish labour's core ( lost) voters. Or, he may not. Anyone got a view on him?

I don't want to be accused of mud slinging again!

[eFestivals]

Senior Blair aide John Mcternan coming in to head up Irn Bru Murphys team. He may well be a charming and honest man who will appeal to Scottish labour's core ( lost) voters. Or, he may not. Anyone got a view on him?

I don't want to be accused of mud slinging again!

I know nothing of him.

But is there anything Labour can do to win back the people who have stopped listening to Labour and anything at all except the voices in their heads?

I spent a few hours last night/today reading comments about Sturgeon's avoidance of the need for cuts in Scotland if Scotland was running on just it's own money - and it's truly astounding just how many Scots are still claiming that oil is "a bonus" to Scotland and not not-enough of an essential asset to support Scottish public spending at it's current level.

When people are choosing to not even listen to the info the party/campaign they support puts out, they're beyond the reach of sense.

[LJS]

Unlike Alex's "corp tax always 3% lower than England's".

I know you love this point as it clearly shows (in your world view) that then SNP are just to the left of Atilla the Hun.

But just for factual accuracy (you like facts) here is what you have been basing this on

"This Government plans to set out a timescale for reducing

corporation tax by up to three percentage points below the

prevailing UK rate."

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0043/00439021.pdf

(my emphasis)

Not quite as clear cut or extreme as what you are claiming

& their justification...

"Modelling suggests that such a cut could

increase the level of output by 1.4 per cent, boost overall

employment in Scotland by 1.1 per cent (equivalent to 27,000

jobs) and raise overall investment in the Scottish economy by

1.9 per cent after 20 years"

Now, i am not suggesting that this is not open to challenge but not any more so than your assertion (totally unsupported as usual) that this is a direct subsidy to the rich & will result in a "race to the bottom"

Care to supply an example of this?

Should be easy, they world is full of neighbouring countries with differing rates of business taxes.

I await your long list of examples.

[LJS]

I know nothing of him.

But is there anything Labour can do to win back the people who have stopped listening to Labour and anything at all except the voices in their heads?

I spent a few hours last night/today reading comments about Sturgeon's avoidance of the need for cuts in Scotland if Scotland was running on just it's own money - and it's truly astounding just how many Scots are still claiming that oil is "a bonus" to Scotland and not not-enough of an essential asset to support Scottish public spending at it's current level.

When people are choosing to not even listen to the info the party/campaign they support puts out, they're beyond the reach of sense.

I think their are legitimate concerns about McTeirnan - he is about as far to the right as you can get in the labour party & his tactics would not be out of place in "the thick of it"

Since you take such an interest in scottish politics & can work Google, I'll not nisult you by telling you more

[LJS]

Because I was specifically asked for my opinion and I gave my opinion in response, it didn't need couching as "this is my opinion".

I felt a bit bad about this, so i went back & you were not "specifically asked" for an opinion.

i try really hard to make it clear when I am stating my opinion ( as i often do) & when I am reporting facts - & I usually link to my source

You don't generally bother. You rely on Neil's Law: Neil's opinion = fact

[eFestivals]

Now, i am not suggesting that this is not open to challenge but not any more so than your assertion (totally unsupported as usual) that this is a direct subsidy to the rich & ...

I refer you to Das Kapital, or a million other bits of writing by all of left, centre, and right - which recognises that the poor do not own the means of production.

....will result in a "race to the bottom"

Care to supply an example of this?

Ireland.

You know, the place that used to be called a celtic tiger and that Salmond wanted to mirror - including to mirror the collapse of its economy.

Why did its economy collapse? Cos the rich ran away with all of the money because low corp tax let them have that money to run away with.

[eFestivals]

PS: low corp tax is the "trickle down" idea, that if you let the rich keep more of the wealth, the poor benefit from the wealthy keeping more of the wealth.

You know, the very neoliberal idea that Westminster has been pursuing for 35 years, that Scotland has said is so very horrible and they want no part of.

When did the Scotland have its labotomy?

[eFestivals]

I think their are legitimate concerns about McTeirnan - he is about as far to the right as you can get in the labour party & his tactics would not be out of place in "the thick of it"

Since you take such an interest in scottish politics & can work Google, I'll not nisult you by telling you more

Labour could elect a full Marxist leadership and the likes of you would still claim them to the right of the clearly-neoliberal SNP.

That's not me claiming anything of SLAB, it's me recognising that the likes of you have stopped listening in preference of making it up.

Which I know to be the truth, as proven to me by many thousands of Scots - accessed by googling.