The Dirty Independence Question

[Comfy Bean]

I cant see how anyone can argue the scottish economy is anything but shagged at the moment. Luckily, the price of oil being so low is a net positive for the UK economy which will mitigate the utter disaster in scotland.

If this isnt the perfect example of why the union is a good thing then what hope is there?

When prices of oil rise again of course the raving yes-ers will be crying into their haggis over the fact they have to share the profits with the rest of the UK, conveniently forgetting all the previous years they've been propped up. As usual.

The Tories are in charge and some might say that our economies are shagged. I notice you are talking about the price of oil going up again. Neil talking about the price staying the same for " 3 or 4 years " but you know Russ that this isn`t going to be the case. This is why I want to make the point that the SNP and Indy vote continues to rise during the current " crisis ".

[kaosmark2]

Hardcore racist selfish twats in middle England that vote for tories every election are a fact of life. Blaming everyone else for them and electing the whole country to put up with it for the sake of some ideal has to be well considered. I know I've said I'm not voting labour, but I think it is vitally important for everyone to consider the cost of not doing so. Scotland has a right to vote Snp, but they should consider it constantly.

[LJS]

Hardcore racist selfish twats in middle England that vote for tories every election are a fact of life. Blaming everyone else for them and electing the whole country to put up with it for the sake of some ideal has to be well considered. I know I've said I'm not voting labour, but I think it is vitally important for everyone to consider the cost of not doing so. Scotland has a right to vote Snp, but they should consider it constantly.

I completely agree with you Kaos. Like you, I shall not vote Labour in May, but this decision has Bern made after much soul srsrching. Of course we have to be aware of the potential consequences of our vote bit as I have regularly pointed out the "vote Snp get Tory' line is pretty pathetic. Particularly as the Tories are punting the " vote Snp get labour" line. I may or may not vote Snp. If I do it will be a tactical vote partly to get rid of a pretty craps sitting Labour MP. Or I might vote green cos they best represent my views.

Whatever I vote,there will be loads of thought going into it.

[eFestivals]

P-O-W-E-R

I think you underestimate it's attraction.

Nope, I'm well aware of the power games the SNP are playing - where they get the power they want by fucking things around and not doing the best for the people of Scotland. You know, like when they don't act against the bedroom tax in Westminster (and so cost YOU some public service cuts in Scotland).

As I've kept on telling you, the way the SNP get power is via 'horrible' govt from Westminster and not amenable govt from Westminster.

Vote SNP, get the tories. It's what the SNP want.

As second choice, they'll try to screw Labour, but there's nothing in it for Labour.

Or is it still just my opinion that the tories are using as the basis for their election campaign?

[eFestivals]

I make it 15 (assuming this is from the graph) but what's a couple of years between friends?

I assume you thought I was too stupid to noticed that your selection of years conveniently gave a worse outcome for iScotland than the whole graph or the past 10 years for example.

Amazing what you can do with statistics.

Yep, it's amazing what you can do with statistics of you pick the years to suit your argument - as you've done.

I've done no year picking, I've excluded the decade of Max Oil that it's impossible to see return to Scotland and which have no relevance for the future.

I've included over a decade of Lots Of Oil - another scenario that Scotland will never see again, and which causes that graph to make Scotland look more healthy than it is.

You meanwhile have zoomed in on just the few years that suit your argument. If you think anyone might think your own self-serving selection makes you look smart and informed you've got it wrong.

And you're choosing to ignore the shit years for Scotland since the years you've zoomed in on.

Edited February 7, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

The problem with the "Vote SNP get Tory" line, is that in my lifetime there have been 14 general elections. In every single one of these Scotland has elected a majority of Labour MP's. But only 7 times that got us a Labour government & because of the two elections in 1974 this means for More than 50% of my lifetime, Scotland has been governed by a Party it didn't vote for.

So "Vote Labour get Tory" has a pretty good track record.

So how do you think a consistent UKIP voter feels? Shouldn't UKIP also get their time in Govt if *just some* people are voting for them but not enough to actually win?

The result if made up from all votes. Why hasn't that occurred to you?

[eFestivals]

Indeed it has sir. Unlike " Vote SNP get Tory ". Utter drivel to deflect from the fact that Scotland will NOT vote Tory.

who you don't vote fo5r aren't excluded from winning, you know.

The winner is the party with the most votes. If you take away votes from one of the possible winners, you make the other possible winner have a greater chance of winning.

What is drivel is the idea that your vote doesn't impact into the result.

What is drivel is the idea that how you vote should be the result.

If you want to be stupid with your vote, accept that plenty will think you stupid for your vote.

If you want a Labour govt, vote for it.

If you don't want to Labour govt, be happy with the tory govt you'll get via your choice.

Edited February 7, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

The Tories are in charge and some might say that our economies are shagged. I notice you are talking about the price of oil going up again. Neil talking about the price staying the same for " 3 or 4 years " but you know Russ that this isn`t going to be the case. This is why I want to make the point that the SNP and Indy vote continues to rise during the current " crisis ".

How do you know that oil won't be low for 3 or 4 years?

I don't claim to know, I'm simply repeating the industry view, a better informed view than your own even if you happen to get lucky with the guess you've made.

But anyway, if in March 2016 - the proposed iDay - the prices are still this low, ill you admit then that indy would have been an economic disaster? Or will you find anot6her way to reject reality?

[eFestivals]

I completely agree with you Kaos. Like you, I shall not vote Labour in May, but this decision has Bern made after much soul srsrching. Of course we have to be aware of the potential consequences of our vote bit as I have regularly pointed out the "vote Snp get Tory' line is pretty pathetic. Particularly as the Tories are punting the " vote Snp get labour" line. I may or may not vote Snp. If I do it will be a tactical vote partly to get rid of a pretty craps sitting Labour MP. Or I might vote green cos they best represent my views.

Whatever I vote,there will be loads of thought going into it.

The 'vote SNP get tory' line is NOT pathetic - it's a simple truth of the real possibilities that Scotland might cause.

The tories are punting the opposite line in England is because that's also a simple truth of the real possibilities that voting Labour in England might cause.

You don't have to like those real possibilities, but brushing off the real possibilities as "pathetic" only shows that you won't engage with the truth.

If you'll be voting to get rid of a Labour MP, you clearly do not want a Labour Govt, and it means you're voting to positively support a tory victory.

But just pretend you're not a tory supporter with your vote, yeah? Cos then you can pretend you've not punched yourself in the face if/when your vote causes you to live under a tory govt for another 5 years.

Oh yeah, that's a tory govt without a 2nd Scottish indyref, btw. You do know you're getting another during the next parliament under no circumstances whatsoever, don't you?

But if it did happen, same result anyway. The dream will get killed every time!

At least tories have a real reason for supporting a tory victory. To support a tory victory when claiming to not want one makes those types more stupid than any tory.

Edited February 7, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

So how do you think a consistent UKIP voter feels? Shouldn't UKIP also get their time in Govt if *just some* people are voting for them but not enough to actually win?

The result if made up from all votes. Why hasn't that occurred to you?

Neil, do me a favour & respond to the point I make. I have never complained about not getting the government I vote for.

Please don't try & lure me into Neil's bedroom again.

[eFestivals]

Neil, do me a favour & respond to the point I make. I have never complained about not getting the government I vote for.

PMSL - you just did, in the post I replied to.

in my lifetime there have been 14 general elections. In every single one of these Scotland has elected a majority of Labour MP's. But only 7 times that got us a Labour government & because of the two elections in 1974 this means for More than 50% of my lifetime, Scotland has been governed by a Party it didn't vote for.

If that's not a complaint, it must be some random words you decided to post for no reason at all.

Over half of the population of the UK has been governed by a party it didn't vote for for every one of the last 80 years (and quite possibly longer)

That's how the FPTP system works, a system that Scotland (and England) voted to keep.

Edited February 7, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

PMSL - you just did, in the post I replied to.

If that's not a complaint, it must be some random words you decided to post for no reason at all.

Over half of the population of the UK has been governed by a party it didn't vote for for every one of the last 80 years (and quite possibly longer)

That's how the FPTP system works, a system that Scotland (and England) voted to keep.

is English your first language?

Edited February 7, 2015 by LJS

[kaosmark2]

"the government Scotland votes for " is an irrelevant misnomer with Scotland part of the union. As is "the government Cornwall votes for " and "the government London votes for "

[LJS]

"the government Scotland votes for " is an irrelevant misnomer with Scotland part of the union. As is "the government Cornwall votes for " and "the government London votes for "

its as relevant or irrelevant as you choose it to be.

Its relevant to me.

Its irrelevant to you.

the way Scottish voters vote is massively relevant otherwise why is everyone begging us not to vote SNP?

But thank you for recognising, as Neil failed to do, that I am talking about the Government Scotland votes for not the government I vote for. Indeed on some of the occasions when Scotland voted Labour & got Tory I did not vote Labour: so I am complaining about not being governed by a party I didn't vote for.

[russycarps]

The Tories are in charge and some might say that our economies are shagged. I notice you are talking about the price of oil going up again. Neil talking about the price staying the same for " 3 or 4 years " but you know Russ that this isn`t going to be the case. This is why I want to make the point that the SNP and Indy vote continues to rise during the current " crisis ".

I agree the time scales are uncertain, but prices will inevitably rise and inevitably fall again. They will never not be volatile, which is why it is perilous economically for Scotland to make budgets based on the good times.

Support for independence is always high when people don't actually have to make a real decision. When it came to the crunch, people didn't want it.

Are you suggesting that if there was another vote now the yes side would win??

[LJS]

I agree the time scales are uncertain, but prices will inevitably rise and inevitably fall again. They will never not be volatile, which is why it is perilous economically for Scotland to make budgets based on the good times.

Support for independence is always high when people don't actually have to make a real decision. When it came to the crunch, people didn't want it.

Are you suggesting that if there was another vote now the yes side would win??

The most recent opinion polls seem to suggest it might but as you rightly say folk bottle it when it comes to the bit so probably not.

[LJS]

That there were no sunlit uplands to ascend this time is sad, no doubt. Save for this: a far greater, more damaging loss would have been the task of birthing a country with anything other than the most solid majority for independence.

I have come to think that this may well be true & that the next time round, hopefully we will win & win big.

Similar to the results of the 2 devolution referenda.

[kaosmark2]

its as relevant or irrelevant as you choose it to be.

Its relevant to me.

Its irrelevant to you.

the way Scottish voters vote is massively relevant otherwise why is everyone begging us not to vote SNP?

But thank you for recognising, as Neil failed to do, that I am talking about the Government Scotland votes for not the government I vote for. Indeed on some of the occasions when Scotland voted Labour & got Tory I did not vote Labour: so I am complaining about not being governed by a party I didn't vote for.

No, it's completely irrelevant. Scotland is a region of the UK, to select it as if Scotland is any more or less special than any other region suggests that there is something distinct. There isn't. The only unique thing about Scotland in terms of UK politics is that they have another party as a voting option, however there are areas where there aren't Green candidates, areas where there aren't MRLP candidates, areas where there aren't UKIP candidates.

By choosing to impart meaning to "what Scotland votes for" is to declare Scotland to be a special case that deserves a greater electoral influence than it has, which is wrong, each constituency should have equal influence.

How do you feel about Dumfries and Galloway? The Scots there vote blue consistently.

[LJS]

No, it's completely irrelevant. Scotland is a region of the UK, to select it as if Scotland is any more or less special than any other region suggests that there is something distinct. There isn't. The only unique thing about Scotland in terms of UK politics is that they have another party as a voting option, however there are areas where there aren't Green candidates, areas where there aren't MRLP candidates, areas where there aren't UKIP candidates.

By choosing to impart meaning to "what Scotland votes for" is to declare Scotland to be a special case that deserves a greater electoral influence than it has, which is wrong, each constituency should have equal influence.

How do you feel about Dumfries and Galloway? The Scots there vote blue consistently.

Scotland is a Nation (or at least the great majority of Scots including many no voters believe it is.)

If the good people of Dumfries & Galloway, or Shropshire, or anywhere else wish to call themselves a Nation, I have no issue with that. Of course they don't have a parliament, different legal & education system, distinct languages, print their own banknotes & they don't compete at rugby in the 6 Nations....

[MichaelsBeard]

Scotland is a Nation (or at least the great majority of Scots including many no voters believe it is.)

If the good people of Dumfries & Galloway, or Shropshire, or anywhere else wish to call themselves a Nation, I have no issue with that. Of course they don't have a parliament, different legal & education system, distinct languages, print their own banknotes & they don't compete at rugby in the 6 Nations....

What Shropshire, Dumfries and Galloway, Yorkshire, Kent, Northumberland, Fife, Angus, Midlothian etc etc do, do though is vote TOGETHER in a UK general election as an ENTIRETY. There's no such thing as Scotland in a general election. You're voting for a UK whole result.

It's staggering how much this point is having to be reiterated. In a UK election you're voting for who you want to run the whole of the UK. It's a choice between 2 - Labour or the Conservatives. If you're not backing one - you're supporting the other. Scotland may not have always had the UK government it elected (neither did half the UK) but at least in the years you didn't you could say 'we did everything in our power to alter the result of the UK result' - by voting SNP you're doing absolutely nothing to do that as the party you voted for never stood a chance of gaining the most UK votes. It's an awful system, I'll never get why we didn't vote for AV, but it doesn't change that fact nonetheless.

Labour wouldn't be my first choice anymore, however they are the better alternate in our shitty FPTP system and you've got to work within the perimateres that shitty system as it's sadly the only option we have and no matter which way you dress it up - you only have 1 voting option if you don't want the Tories, and that option is 100% not voting SNP.

Edited February 7, 2015 by MichaelsBeard

[TheGayTent]

In a UK election you're voting for who you want to run the whole of the UK.

No you aren't.

[kaosmark2]

No you aren't.

Indeed, you're voting for the MP you want to represent your constituency.

[eFestivals]

Its relevant to me.

You won't like this...

It's only that because the SNP have told you that it is, that Scotland has a right to special treatment.

One day the self-proclaimed Scottish left-leaners will wake up and realise that shouting "me me me" all the time makes Scotland far closer to the tories and Thatcherism than they'd been thinking.

the way Scottish voters vote is massively relevant otherwise why is everyone begging us not to vote SNP?

Because we realise you'd be punching yourself in the face, but you don't?

You say you want a Labour goivt and not a tory govt, while also saying you'll be using your vote to unseat a Labour MP.

You can't recognise the stupidity within your own words; the rest of us can.

But thank you for recognising, as Neil failed to do, that I am talking about the Government Scotland votes for not the government I vote for.

it's the same thing. Neither has a right to a victory for what it voted for.

Lesson one of democracy: all the votes are tallied within the the authorised system, and that creates the result.

Nothing about how a person votes or how an area votes has any special rights or recognition, it all goes into the pot to give the result from the combination of all votes.

Saying "me me me" has a right to special self-interest makes you....? A tory.

[eFestivals]

Scotland is a Nation (or at least the great majority of Scots including many no voters believe it is.)

Bullshit.

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/moreno-national-identity-six-answer-options#line

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/agree-or-disagree-if-scotland-becomesindependent-i-will-never-think-of-the-engl

Yes, you can find polls there that show a greater "Scottishness", but the fact that the view is very muddled means it's nowhere near as clear cut as you've just claimed.

If the good people of Dumfries & Galloway, or Shropshire, or anywhere else wish to call themselves a Nation, I have no issue with that.

and yet Alex does.

The party that demands devolution of powers to itself is more centralising than even the hated Westminster is, and has no truck with devolution of powers within Scotland.

Anyone might think the only rationale to their thinking is this: power-crazed.

Of course they don't have a parliament, different legal & education system, distinct languages, print their own banknotes & they don't compete at rugby in the 6 Nations....

Scotland has its own parliament, authorised by the nation called the UK. Subservience, not nationhood.

Scotland has its own legal system, authorised by the nation called the UK. Subservience, not nationhood.

Scotland has its own education system, authorised by the nation called the UK. Subservience, not nationhood.

Scotland can print its own banknotes that they have to deposit real banknotes of the same amount in Threadneedle Street to be able to do, authorised by the nation called the UK. Subservience, not nationhood.

Congratulations on having nationhood for Scottish rugby.

Scotland is as much a nation as Mercia or Wessex is. A dead one, that ceased to exit a long long time ago.

[LJS]

You won't like this...

Unusually, you are correct