The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

so, Neil

If Labour Shouldn't, can't & won't do a deal with the SNP after the election, why won't they rule it out?

If it is as toxic as you say in England, it's a no Brainer... " no way will we work wiff them sponging Jocks" & job done 3% on the polls.

& as for Scotland - apparently we all think by voting SNP we'll still get a Labour government but with added principles. "no deal with SNP" .. makes the choice a lot starker - in fact, surely it is the way to make their slogan of vote SNP get Tory much more powerful & presumably make all of us irresponsible SNP voters think twice.

But they won't rule it out ...

Question from PA Scotland: To get rid of the Tory government then, would you go into coalition with the SNP?

Curran: I’m confident we can form a majority government; that’s what we’re fighting for, as you would expect us to. Because to stop the things I want to stop the Tories from doing, I want a majority against them but also to implement the things I want to implement, I want a majority government but believe we can win that political argument.

The Guardian weighed in: Are you ruling it out?

Curran: I’m categorically saying I’m fighting for a majority government.

The Guardian: So you’re not ruling it out?

Curran: I’m categorically fighting for a majority government.

We accept we’re behind in the polls and we’ve got a gap to close, but you do that on the basis of … it’s either David Cameron in Number 10 or Ed Miliband [because] that’s the choice people have got to make.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/scotland-blog/2015/feb/10/scottish-labour-contemplates-the-unthinkable-coalition-with-the-snp

So it's impossible, ridiculous, german sausage up the arse crazy stuff... but still they won't rule it out.

Hmmmm!!!

[eFestivals]

Neil has clearly made his mind up about Nicola. I, on the other hand am keeping an open mind.

I'm going by what she says, not what I make up in my head to suit what I wish to believe.

When Nicola says "tax the rich" - if she ever does, which i doubt she will - then she'll get my approval for it, tho I still won't be giving her a free pass.

The only decent policies are decent policies, not my self inventions or delusions.

As I previously said, I liked what i heard form her yesterday & although, I have some reservations yet around her attitude to persuading the well off to contribute more to society,

The only attitude she has towards the well-off is that the SNP won't be asking them to pay more.

Why are you inventing Nicola as left wing when she's not? Are the delusions starting to fade so much that they needs vocalising now to try and keep them going?

I don't get the sense that SNP mp's in Westminster would be likely to oppose tax increases on the wealthy in principal. We will learn more in the coming weeks, no doubt.

The only "principle" the SNP have is to destroy the UK political process while trying to be blame free for doing it, so while they might support tax increases, they won't be doing so as a matter of principle that's for sure.

Ideally from their side, the tax increases the SNP would vote for would be taxes that hit England but not Scotland but which do send extra of those English-raised funds to Scotland - so you'll defo see the SNP support the mansion tax, for example.

But they'll support that mansion tax whilst pretending that England isn't gifting Scotland money, of course.

And meanwhile, the mansion tax is a truly shit solution to the problems of wealth accumulation and racing house prices, tho it does remain better than no reform on land/property taxes.

(Oh look, I've just slagged off Labour as well as the SNP, showing myself as not sucked up a political arsehole unlike some others ).

Although, I am no less in favour of independence than I was during the indy campaign

what, even now that you know that Project Fear was really Project Fact, and that Scotland cannot afford indy without massive cuts in public spending?

Whilst you're saying how shit Westminster is for having massive cuts in public spending?

:lol: :lol:

If the SNP's position in May resembles what NS said last night, it beggars belief that a Labour party with the opportunity to form a government with the support of the SNP, would not even consider it.

You're welcome to that opinion, but it shows you much more disconnected to the UK political process - you know, out-of-touch - than anything said about any Westminster MP.

Labour are not hovering in the centre ground for no reason at all. That seems to have passed you by.

This could not possibly be on ideological grounds, as the policies set out by Sturgeon yesterday would attract considerable support among Labour supporters. It could only be out of spite & hatred (the motivations I am incorrectly accused of having for not voting Labour) If Labour effectively handed the power to the Tories by so doing, they would further damage any credibility they have no matter how much they will try & blame the SNP & the Scottish voters.

so what you're saying is that anyone who doesn't support the diety called Nicola is non-socialist spiteful anti-Scot?

You're funny, you should be on the stage.

1. Nicola is no socialist. It's her who needs to learn from the real ones, and not the other way around.

2. some people have ideas about paying for things as well as buying things.

3. some people are working a for-people agenda, and not a for-Scotland agenda.

4. other better plans are available. Like any of the plans with some actual real socialism included within them.

Socialism is about from those with ability to those in need. It's not about adding to the debts to be paid by the poor of the future to give to those in need.

The SNP's "social democracy" which is about robbing the poor to give to the doing-OKs and betters is what it is, not what you invent for it. It's everything - and more - that you condemn Labour for. It's playing to the centre ground.

Edited February 13, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

so, Neil

If Labour Shouldn't, can't & won't do a deal with the SNP after the election, why won't they rule it out?

for the same reason that the SNP won't say what the deal would be?

If it is as toxic as you say in England, it's a no Brainer... " no way will we work wiff them sponging Jocks" & job done 3% on the polls.

Every single major party is currently keeping its options open with what they're saying.

Why are you expecting more from Labour than you do from the SNP? Might it be some double-standards that you're operating?

& as for Scotland - apparently we all think by voting SNP we'll still get a Labour government but with added principles. "no deal with SNP" .. makes the choice a lot starker - in fact, surely it is the way to make their slogan of vote SNP get Tory much more powerful & presumably make all of us irresponsible SNP voters think twice.

But they won't rule it out ...

Political parties want to win. England is a far bigger and therefore more-powerful 'constituency'.

I'm sure you can work it out, but if you can't you'll have just worked out that your considerations must be lacking something.

So it's impossible, ridiculous, german sausage up the arse crazy stuff... but still they won't rule it out.

Hmmmm!!!

Meanwhile, the SNP a tory govt but are pretending differently.

But they've ruled out supporting one, and yet you still can't work it out. :lol:

[tolywoly]

Toly, I have written at length in the past of my hopes for a post Indy Scotland, I have neither the time nor the energy to go over it again.

LJS, if you've ever explained how Scottish independence practically delivers a fairer and more just society please paste it here for my benefit.

As I said, I've heard that a lot from Nationalists and no one's yet been able to show me why it's anything more than an empty Utopian fantasy.

[tolywoly]

I agree wholeheartedly with you that the "vote SNP, get Tory" line is deceiving SNP voters & has no legs at all.

Well said that man

More accurate of course would be "vote Labour get Tory" which is what happens about half the time.

Or "Vote Labour, get New Labour (now with added Toryness!)

If the Tories end up the largest party in Westminster then odds are they'll form the rump of the next government. The best chance for avoiding that outcome is to ensure Labour are the largest party. There was no progressive Labour/Lib/SNP/Other coalition of the defeated in 2010, despite the numbers adding up. So if by voting SNP you deprive Labour of a MP you make another Tory led government more probable. Simple.

The 'vote Labour get Tory' line by comparison is inward looking and irrelevant, in that it doesn't apply to the UK as a whole. It's just designed to fire up the healthy nationalist sense of grievance. This is a UK general election, the country Scotland's opted to stay part of. There's no point in continuing to fixate on that dividing line. Vote for the best outcome for the UK.

Will SNP voters finally wake up and smell the coffee if it's another Tory government come May - 'but vote SNP/get Tory, that was just scaremongering', or will it still be Labour's fault somehow?

[russycarps]

the worst outcome for the SNP supporters is a Labour government. They want the torys to win - they NEED the torys to win - and to inflict maximum pain on scotland. So they can then wring their hands and bleat about how awful the english are.

It does not matter who has to suffer in order for the dream of independence to become reality.

Obviously the people who will suffer are the poor, not those insulated from the hardship like (by his own admission) LJS.

[eFestivals]

Will SNP voters finally wake up and smell the coffee if it's another Tory government come May - 'but vote SNP/get Tory, that was just scaremongering', or will it still be Labour's fault somehow?

I've seen that "vote SNP get tory" line called "the new Project Fear" by nats.

That'll be the same nats who still haven't faced up to Project Fear being proven as Project Fact via the collapse in oil prices.

[eFestivals]

the worst outcome for the SNP supporters is a Labour government.

Not quite true, i'd say. A huge chuck of those SNP voters will genuinely be voting SNP nd wanting a Labour govt, I'd say.

It's the SNP themselves who want a tory govt. It's the best boost for indy they can get.

They want the torys to win - they NEED the torys to win - and to inflict maximum pain on scotland. So they can then wring their hands and bleat about how awful the english are.

exactly this!

It does not matter who has to suffer in order for the dream of independence to become reality.

spot on.

The SNP *want* the people of Scotland to suffer bad things from Westminster, so they can claim that only nice things would happen if they were in charge.

And it works, too - but only because their supporters won't do the maths. LJS still won't accept what those GERS numbers from his nice friend Mr Salmond say about Scotland's fucked fiscal position, and comfy won't accept that iScotland would completely fucked if the oil price is still low in March 2016.

When you don't need to fool your own voters because they're fooling themselves, life is easy for any party - as Nigel can tell us all too.

Obviously the people who will suffer are the poor, not those insulated from the hardship like (by his own admission) LJS.

That's no different to who the SNP make suffer in Scotland now. Stuff like free uni for the middle classes has been paid for taking money from services which benefit the poorest the most.

The new Scottish politics is laughable. There's a bunch of people running around condemning Labour for particular things, whilst they're supporting a party that does all of the same things but to an even greater extent.

Edited February 13, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

Whilst there will no doubt be a few "fundamentalist-indy at all costs" Nats who would welcome another Tory government as a price worth paying if it speeds independence, I think you are all way off the mark in suggesting that this is a view held by anything approaching a significant number either in or out of the SNP. I have never spoken to anyone who believes this.

[gary1979666]

As the resident tory in this thread, I think I may have been confusing things a bit.

Forget all I said before. Please vote SNP.

[eFestivals]

Whilst there will no doubt be a few "fundamentalist-indy at all costs" Nats who would welcome another Tory government as a price worth paying if it speeds independence, I think you are all way off the mark in suggesting that this is a view held by anything approaching a significant number either in or out of the SNP. I have never spoken to anyone who believes this.

As I said, I don't think most SNP voters want what the SNP want.

You're an example of that, talking about the SNP wanting "more" taxes from the better off when they've yet to ask for anything from the better off.

Or when you think the SNP's demand for "full fiscal autonomy" will see riches scattered onto Scotland and not a dose of extra hardships.

But the SNP defo want a shit govt from Westminster. If they want good govt from Westminster they might as well shut up shop today, as they cease to have any purpose as a political party.

If you've not realised that, you really need to stop and do some thinking, because thinking can't have been what you've been doing up till now.

Edited February 13, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

As the resident tory in this thread, I think I may have been confusing things a bit.

Forget all I said before. Please vote SNP.

[Comfy Bean]

As the resident tory in this thread, I think I may have been confusing things a bit.

Forget all I said before. Please vote SNP.

Just heard Jim Murph on the radio. He`s still got the one card : Vote SNP get Dave. Before we start all that again I fully accept the maths around this argument, just as I`m guessing that you folks accept that only a couple of Tory seats will be added to the required total from round my way. Anywayz, it`s fair enough for on here but would we not all expect the Scottish Labour Leader to be offering more ? I`m serious, maybe even a policy or two !

They were also discussing the article about the SNP being" Tartan Stalinists " ?!

NS on Question Time on Thursday night. Hopefully she will be able to share some of her views and not just have to bat back the " vote snp get Tory " line. I`d imagine she will be keen to get after whoever Labour put up on Labour`s austerity position. Will be interesting to hear what she has to say to a UK wide audience. I`m sure you guys will give her a fair hearing.

She is on record as saying that Margaret Thatcher and Tory ideals inspired her to get into politics. Not in the way you would like to think though Gary

[eFestivals]

Just heard Jim Murph on the radio. He`s still got the one card : Vote SNP get Dave.

it might just be the one card, but it's also what will happen if you've been following the opinion polls.

You can ignore the impact your vote will have on the result. You will not be able to ignore the impact of a tory govt.

[eFestivals]

would we not all expect the Scottish Labour Leader to be offering more ? I`m serious, maybe even a policy or two !

Labour have well-laid-out Westminster policies.

The party you plan voting for have none at all.

Why do you expect more from the one you won't vote for than you do the one you will vote for?

[Comfy Bean]

it might just be the one card, but it's also what will happen if you've been following the opinion polls.

You can ignore the impact your vote will have on the result. You will not be able to ignore the impact of a tory govt.

Fortunately, I`m not ignoring anything. Are you ignoring the part Labour ( in Scotland ) have played in there own downfall ( if the polls are to be believed ) ? The point I was trying to make is that I believe they need to be fighting back with something containing a bit more substance than an old scotland football top and a can of irn bru accompanied by repeating the same line over and over again for 6 months.

I expected more but I like Irn Bru

Oh and I`ve seen the impact of a Tory Government. You may remember I voted to be rid of them last year amongst other reasons of course.

[Comfy Bean]

Labour have well-laid-out Westminster policies.

The party you plan voting for have none at all.

Why do you expect more from the one you won't vote for than you do the one you will vote for?

As I mentioned earlier, NS is on QT on Thursday night and I am interested to hear what she has to say to a UK wide audience. As you have said Neil, her party have an important role to play in this election. I honestly hope you get the chance to hear what she has to say and as I said before, I hope she is questioned and challenged and not just hit with the standard : vote snp get tory. Lets give her a chance to speak and listen to what she has to say...she waited long enough behind your pal

I`m also interested in how her views will compare with the tory and labour folk on the panel.

[eFestivals]

Fortunately, I`m not ignoring anything.

really? Then you'll be able to tell me the SNP's policies for Westminster.

BTW, in case you've missed it, "spend more money on Scotland" is not a policy, unless it includes where that extra money for Scotland should come from.

Are you ignoring the part Labour ( in Scotland ) have played in there own downfall

care to tell me what Labour have done to make themselves less electable to a supposedly "left leaning" Scottish electorate since the 2010 election?

The only possible thing could be them failing to get elected as the govt in 2010.

Which isn't going to be bettered by voting for a party which has no chance whatsoever of being elected as the govt, is it?

The point I was trying to make is that I believe they need to be fighting back with something containing a bit more substance

and the SNP's greater substance to make them worthy of your vote is....? Nothing at all.

You plan to vote for nothing at all on the basis that someone else is offering a better something.

Logic failure, much?

[eFestivals]

As I mentioned earlier, NS is on QT on Thursday night and I am interested to hear what she has to say to a UK wide audience.

we heard that last week.

It took her an hour or more to say it, but the *ONLY* thing she said was "Scotland should get more UK money".

Nothing about how that money should be raised, tho. Not a jot. Zero. Zilch.

It's that magic money tree again.

As you have said Neil, her party have an important role to play in this election.

not if Scotland comes to its senses.

I honestly hope you get the chance to hear what she has to say

I heard it all last week. She has nothing of substance to say, as she proved last week.

Lets give her a chance to speak and listen to what she has to say.

She had a very well publicised chance last week, that got much greater penetration than anything she might say on QT will get.

I listened. She had nothing of any substance to say.

How did that pass you by?

I`m also interested in how her views will compare with the tory and labour folk on the panel.

That's an easy one.

Her views won't have anyone in Scotland paying for what she wants Scotland to have. As she made clear last week, when she demanded more money for Scotland but didn't have a clue where the money would come from.

If she's a socialist, why isn't she saying "tax the rich" as Labour are doing?

If she does say "tax the rich" on QT and match for the very first time what Labour have been saying for 4+ years (or longer), you'll no doubt hail that as a great socialist leap forwards beyond anything from Labour.

Edited February 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Elsewhere...

I see that the SNP hate devolution of powers, and don't like Scottish decisions made by Scottish people, instead only liking SNP decisions made by SNP people.

I'm referring to the Scottish teachers issue in this particular case (tho there's plenty of others much the same), in case you Scots aren't following Scottish politics and are instead inventing your own versions.

[kaosmark2]

Oh and I`ve seen the impact of a Tory Government. You may remember I voted to be rid of them last year

Actually, you voted to give them greater mid-term power, by having a far reduced chance of being ousted in a rUK election, while still maintaining Scotland's dependence in practicality.

[Comfy Bean]

If she's a socialist, why isn't she saying "tax the rich" as Labour are doing?

If she does say "tax the rich" on QT and match for the very first time what Labour have been saying for 4+ years (or longer), you'll no doubt hail that as a great socialist leap forwards beyond anything from Labour.

I never said she was a Socialist ?

I did mention earlier the SNP were being accused of being Tartan Stalinists if thats what you mean ? Atleast you are clearly going to give her a fair crack of the whip on Thursday. I am expecting her to come across well and I`m guessing you will not have seen it

I`ve attached an article from people who do claim to be Socialists. They seem to think that Labour has " surrendered to austerity " amongst other things.

http://socialistreview.org.uk/382/labours-surrender-austerity

[eFestivals]

Atleast you are clearly going to give her a fair crack of the whip on Thursday. I am expecting her to come across well and I`m guessing you will not have seen it

By "come across well", what do you mean? A nice smile that makes your willy quiver? How about policies?

I gave her a fair crack of the whip last week. She had nothing of any substance to say - which you know yourself if you tuned in.

Why do you think she'll have more to say when she's talking ad-hoc than she was able to say when making a big pre-planned well-publicised speech?

I`ve attached an article from people who do claim to be Socialists. They seem to think that Labour has " surrendered to austerity " amongst other things.

Nope, they've surrendered to paying the bills, the bit of policy that the SNP don't have any policy for.

Even the Greek govt doesn't go as vacuous as the SNP - the Greek govt do at least accept that bills have to be paid, even if they're trying to kick the payment down the road.

[Comfy Bean]

Actually, you voted to give them greater mid-term power, by having a far reduced chance of being ousted in a rUK election, while still maintaining Scotland's dependence in practicality.

I like your use of " mid-term " there KM As you know, I also thought that breaking up the vile and corrupt Westminster set up would have been of some benefit to the good folks in ruk. As would have the return of a " real " Labour party in Scotland taking a different path *. I know it`s easy for me to say but I have been saying it since I first started posting in this thread. Scottish Independence could have been a good thing for us all......long term.

* by different path I mean not chasing the middle englander vote while continuing to veer to the right. Scottish Labour should not/would not be doing this.

[Comfy Bean]

By "come across well", what do you mean? A nice smile that makes your willy quiver?

Aye. That`s probably what I was meaning.