The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

Fair enough Mark. I think we all agreed to park the whole Country argument and I don`t wish to start all that again but can you name any of theses home counties who are soon to be excluded from voting in Westminster on certain issues ?

can you name me a single thing that Scotland is excluded from voting on in Westminster?

But don't let that stop you from making it up, yeah?

Now, what about the Scottish councils that are excluded from voting on their own local issues by Holyrood? Does that count for anything?

You know, where Holyrood insist they spend money they don't have, and where Holyrood won't even allow them to try and raise more money (rather than debts)?

Why are debts a nonentity to the SNP? Is that because they're financially astute, or because they're financial morons?

Why are SNP economic policies often to the right of the tories, and accepted by YOU as a good thing and beyond criticism?

[eFestivals]

I think the folks on here who think Scotland can easily be an independent country have made the point that it could in time prove to be a good thing for everyone and this is important to us.

It's all very well saying "Scotland might be better as indy", but it's your fellow sco5t you need to convince of that, and not me.

Your fellow Scot wasn't convinced. That's YOUR failing, not mine.

Why did it fail? Due to a laughable economic plan, which would have made Scotland poorer, but where those advocating a poorer Scotland couldn't even face up to their own want.

Meanwhile, even a previous SNP leader has laughed his arse off at Salmond's claims in his lovely new myth book.

We are all trapped in a system where there is a direction of travel to the right

while I hate where we're going, I recognise the democratic will of the people. Why can't you?

and how many times have you read on here that an Indy Scotland could allow Labour to stop chasing the middle englander votes.

as the SNP gifts to the middle classes show and the support they get via those middle-class privileges show, it's not what Scotland wants.

Scotland showing that a different path is available is the last thing the establishment want.

Scotland being bankrupt and bringing pain onto rUk is the last thing the establishment want.

You tho think that's a good thing, and fuck your fellow man who you'll bring misery onto.

Imagine the scenes if Scotland made a success

Imagining is the only way you'll see that success.

We could have seen politics turned upside down and for the benefits of the people you say would be left behind.

then show us all the magic money tree.

Or accept the truth of Scotland's financial position.

Unfortunately the good folks in England seem to quite fancy a Tory Govt so perhaps they don`t want a different path.

just as the good people of Scotland don't want a different path.

Ohhhh, you'd forgotten that bit, hadn't you?

[eFestivals]

The polls in Scotland show that it is not the case North of the border.

The indyref showed that it IS the case North of the border.

those polls show support for world peace and momma's apple pie, and not for indy.

Hopefully you have read enough on these boards to know that no-one wishes to leave the UK out of spite.

dunno about that one - there's certainly a big spoonful amongst your fellow travellers.

It's certainly true tho that no one wishes to leave the UK with Scottish facts, that's why you avoid them like the plague.

Let Scotland lead the way.

Perhaps get around to starting with that then? Instead of trying to walk a turd down the street?

I`m assuming you don`t actually believe that Dave actually gives a shit about Scotland.

I've no idea either way, nor do you. There's the political game, and then there's what he thinks.

Meanwhile, how do you give a shit about the people in Scotland, who you want to impoverish?

7am the day after the vote confirmed what most of us already knew. Just ask Darling.

Yeah, because Scotland should get more local powers but still still keep all Westminster powers, yeah? FFS.

All that proves is that Scotland hasn't yet come to terms with the devolution it wanted, so certainly isn't emotionally ready for indy.

A politically-mature Scotland would accept an exchange of powers between places as right and proper, rather than categorically reject it with all details unseen.

[eFestivals]

And I've said before, I thoroughly despise the idea of excluding Scottish MPs from voting on issues.

And I despise the idea of Scottish MPs having the same powers twice-over.

A politically mature Scotland would look to solve the issue, and not out-right reject all attempts at addressing it.

It's divide and rule politics and a blatant attempt by the Tories to manipulate a sense of rejection into engineering greater power for themselves.

Nicely summarised.

Anyone who thinks that Scotland should remain part of the union is being utterly hypocritical if they support the idea of English MPs voting on English laws.

No, anyone who thinks that Scotland should have devolved powers but still vote on English-only issues are the hypocrites.

There should be no dispute over the idea. The only arguments should be about the method.

Edited March 22, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I genuinely believe that the steady shift to the right is reversing. Not heavily, but enough.

nah, it's really not.

There was an article on the front page of the Guardian's website yesterday, with a title of something about a move to the left, but within the article detail it made clear that it was the normal 'anti' reaction to the sitting govt.

So what is wanted is something slightly to the left of what we have now, which will be followed a few years down the line by something to the right of what we might get after this election.

As I've kept pointing out to LJS and others, if the UK is to the left, where are the people who vote for the left? Even in Scotland where there's 'proper left' parties and an electoral system that works for minor parties, those 'left' parties get fuck all support.

People are not voting for the right wing parties because Labour is not left enough.

They're* voting for those right wing parties (SNP included) because they're self-interested money grubbing w*nkers with few cares for those worse off then them. Chuck them a few middle-class crumbs and you've bought their heart til the next bribe comes along.

(* just to make clear, I mean 'people of the UK' and not just 'Scotland').

I'm no fan of FPTP, or the House of Lords, or many aspects of our "democracy", but I feel the appetite for change is growing, and that all sensible British people being united in campaigning for that - as opposed to divided campaigning for independence or electoral reform or county devolution or whatever - will be much more productive than furthering any sense of division that already exists.

From what I see, the only growing call for change is around the electoral system, for something which better reflects how 'the people' vote - PR, essentially.

That one change (if/when it eventually happens) will be a big change, that changes everything - but as the AV referendum got to show, there's plenty who think change is not to be embraced, too.

Like it or not, that's called democracy, and you can't run away from democracy by redrawing the lines - tho snippers seem to think that's exactly what they'll get, the SNP-stupid-bankrupt-Scotland, just because some economic-illiterate fact-free-ers say so.

Edited March 22, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

So, tell us about Sturgeon's relationship with Murdoch. Salmond is history like Blair & Brown & of no relevance today.

have her diary meetings been published yet, for us to be able to know if she's been sucking Murdoch's cock just as Salmond did?

Get back to me when you know one way or another.

Edited March 22, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

PS: if her meetings have been published, can we be sure they're all listed?

After all, Salmond published bullshit about his own meetings, to try and hide just how much he was sucking Murdoch's cock.

[eFestivals]

Salmond is history like Blair & Brown & of no relevance today.

PPS: Blair and Brown both exited the political arena. Salmond is planning to play a new major part.

Meanwhile, all your anti-Labour comments are specifically referencing Blair and Brown and never Miliband.

Perhaps try some of your own advice?

[Comfy Bean]

Fortunately, everyone on here on either side of the debate will know that this " little gang " exists only in your head. You hadn`t mentioned Murdoch for a while as he ended up after all on board with you on the Indy debate.

I have never seen anyone on here defend Salmond over his relationship with Murdoch. Not once. You keep bringing it up while forgetting the whole political system flashes the knickers at him ( to their shame ). A bit like our football clubs ( well not mine ).

No, it exists in reality, as proven by the public declarations by both Farage and Salmond (tho 'eventually' for Salmond, after some lies to try and hide these meetings)

Meanwhile, there's no meetings of Murdoch and Labour.

But don't let the facts stop you making it up, I'd lose the comedy I get from following indy and its facts.

That's how it is with fact-free-ers. They certainly add to the comedy, but never the truth.

Can you link me in to any meetings between your " gang " ie Farage, Salmond, Murdoch. In the treehouse at the bottom of your garden doesn`t count

I don`t know why you pretend that anyone on here gives Salmond a free pass over his Murdoch links ( see above from yesterday ). When I said the " whole political system " I was quite clearly meaning the whole lot of them. When I said " their shame " I was including Salmond.

Are you seriously trying to remove Labour from this with your post above ?

" No meetings of Murdoch and Labour " ??????

Is Blair not the Godfather of one of his daughters ? I`m not 100% sure on that but I thought he was / is....

Are Tom Baldwin and John McTernan not still the top advisors to the Leader of Labour and Scottish Labour ?

Tom Baldwin could probably tell us a thing or two about hacking and the bskyb bid and we have discussed McTernan on here before and his views on Scotland. Murphy bringing him in as his side kick was bizarre....at best. Guess who they both used to work for ( no prizes )

I see you are now trying to link NS with Murdoch. I have no idea if she has ever met him. Over the years, I`d be surprised if their paths hadnt crossed. Are you saying ( or just implying ) that she has had recent dealings with Murdoch ??? While saying Labour have had nowt to do with him ? I`m honestly confused.

In your opinion Neil, what side did SKY, The Sun etc take in the Indy campaign ?

[Comfy Bean]

can you name me a single thing that Scotland is excluded from voting on in Westminster?

Are you familiar with the term " soon to be excluded from " ?

It was in the post that you replied to with the above.

Try it another way then. Can you name any " regions " of the UK who may soon be banned from voting on certain Westminster decisions that will affect other regions within the Union ?

To be clear, I`m not arguing one way or another on this but you seemed to dodge my point ( see above ) so I`m still not clear on your view on the English votes thing ?

Do you agree with reports that Darling " begged " Dave not to mention this in his morning after Scottish Indy speech and can you see what Darlings point was ?

[Comfy Bean]

John McTernan was recently appointed by Jimbo Murphy to help Jim defend Labour`s massive majorities across Scotland where the SNP currently have only 6 seats. According to the polls, the duo are not making a great job of it so far but Murphy said in January that he doesn`t think they will lose a single seat. Previously McTernan said this about Scotland, which has not surprisingly not went down too well up here :

"If you've not been to Sweden before I think you'll really like it," he wrote. "It's the country Scotland would be if it was not narrow, Presbyterian, racist, etc, etc. Social democracy in action."

Vote SNP get Tory etc etc etc.............

[Comfy Bean]

Reports today that SNP have now reached the goal that Salmond set in November. 100,000 members. Should there be any changes with support from the Unions after the GE then not sure how many Labour would have left in Scotland. Jimbo says ( according to this article ) they have 20,000 at the moment but this will include a lot of Union members.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/scottish-politics/snp-boost-as-membership-soars-past-100k-mark.1427009904

[kaosmark2]

No, anyone who thinks that Scotland should have devolved powers but still vote on English-only issues are the hypocrites.

There should be no dispute over the idea. The only arguments should be about the method.

A MP is a MP. They are in parliament, representing their beliefs on issues raised in the UK parliament.

If there are any "English-only" issues raised in the UK parliament, then there should be devolution to those areas with another tier of elected figures. Not having 2 classes of MP within the same body.

I've said before I advocate regional devolution for a number of issues. I don't support national devolution on any.

[eFestivals]

Can you link me in to any meetings between your " gang " ie Farage, Salmond, Murdoch. In the treehouse at the bottom of your garden doesn`t count

I don`t know why you pretend that anyone on here gives Salmond a free pass over his Murdoch links ( see above from yesterday ). When I said the " whole political system " I was quite clearly meaning the whole lot of them. When I said " their shame " I was including Salmond.

Are you seriously trying to remove Labour from this with your post above ?

" No meetings of Murdoch and Labour " ??????

Is Blair not the Godfather of one of his daughters ? I`m not 100% sure on that but I thought he was / is....

Are Tom Baldwin and John McTernan not still the top advisors to the Leader of Labour and Scottish Labour ?

Tom Baldwin could probably tell us a thing or two about hacking and the bskyb bid and we have discussed McTernan on here before and his views on Scotland. Murphy bringing him in as his side kick was bizarre....at best. Guess who they both used to work for ( no prizes )

I see you are now trying to link NS with Murdoch. I have no idea if she has ever met him. Over the years, I`d be surprised if their paths hadnt crossed. Are you saying ( or just implying ) that she has had recent dealings with Murdoch ??? While saying Labour have had nowt to do with him ? I`m honestly confused.

In your opinion Neil, what side did SKY, The Sun etc take in the Indy campaign ?

You don't give Salmond a free pass, but never condemn him, and throw out some long dead squirrels to try and defend him.

Yep, you're really engaging with the facts.

There have been NO meetings of Murdoch and Labour. Salmond has had so many meetings with Murdoch he's nbeen caught lying about them.

What parts of the facts are you having difficulty with?

Edited March 23, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Are you familiar with the term " soon to be excluded from " ?

are you familiar with the term "devolved powers"?

Scotland *SHOULD* be excluded from voting on devolved matters. The only argument to be had is about the structure and method for how it's done.

Next up from the snippers: Scotland demands the continuation of the Barnett formula after winning an indie vote.

[eFestivals]

Reports today that SNP have now reached the goal that Salmond set in November. 100,000 members.

shock news for snippers: "snippers support separation".

Who'd have thought it?

[eFestivals]

A MP is a MP. They are in parliament, representing their beliefs on issues raised in the UK parliament.

If there are any "English-only" issues raised in the UK parliament, then there should be devolution to those areas with another tier of elected figures. Not having 2 classes of MP within the same body.

I've said before I advocate regional devolution for a number of issues. I don't support national devolution on any.

In exactly the same way as Scotland is permitted to decide its constitutional structure and pass laws on its own behalf, the same equal right should apply to others.

Go one, tell me that's wrong.

Next up, how the Barnet formula will keep funding an uneconomic indy Scotland?

[eFestivals]

How many conversions to tory votes do you think Salmond got yesterday when he was out campaigning for the tories?

He even used their campaign slogan of "vote Labour get SNP".

Edited March 23, 2015 by eFestivals

[kaosmark2]

In exactly the same way as Scotland is permitted to decide its constitutional structure and pass laws on its own behalf, the same equal right should apply to others.

Go one, tell me that's wrong.

Next up, how the Barnet formula will keep funding an uneconomic indy Scotland?

English devolution is different from 2 classes of MPs. A MP for the UK parliament should be able to vote on all issues raised there. If an issue isn't suitable for the UK parliament, it should be raised and decided upon at a tier of politics appropriate for the issue - which should be created if it doesn't exist.

I'm also fine with the Barnett formula. Some areas require more public funding if they're to have all essential services met than others. The Barnett formula is a representation of that that stops things like the tories giving highest funding to councils in swing seats.

[eFestivals]

English devolution is different from 2 classes of MPs.

Not that I personally agree with it, but if 'England' wished to use the same representatives for both purposes, who's business is it but the English's?

As long as the demarcation lines are in the right place, it matters not a fuck to anyone else.

A MP for the UK parliament should be able to vote on all issues raised there. If an issue isn't suitable for the UK parliament, it should be raised and decided upon at a tier of politics appropriate for the issue - which should be created if it doesn't exist.

all of which is covered within Hague's 'EVEL'.

The only meaningful issue within Hague's 'EVEL' for the likes of Scotland is that it doesn't have the demarcation in a suitable place so that it has no impact onto Scotland.

I'm also fine with the Barnett formula. Some areas require more public funding if they're to have all essential services met than others. The Barnett formula is a representation of that that stops things like the tories giving highest funding to councils in swing seats.

So what you're saying is that both you and snippers have no problems with Barnet, as long as the money the SNP divert to pet projects is made up by more than Barnet so that Scots don't suffer bad things as a result of SNP policies.

If the SNP get to decide how they distribute Scotland's share of UK money to Scottish councils - as they do - why the fuck do you think England shouldn't be allowed to politicise its money distribution in exactly the same way?

At least no one is forcing central policy onto those English councils to force them into greater debt, as the SNP have been doing in Scotland.

Edited March 23, 2015 by eFestivals

[gary1979666]

English devolution is different from 2 classes of MPs. A MP for the UK parliament should be able to vote on all issues raised there. If an issue isn't suitable for the UK parliament, it should be raised and decided upon at a tier of politics appropriate for the issue - which should be created if it doesn't exist.

I'm also fine with the Barnett formula. Some areas require more public funding if they're to have all essential services met than others. The Barnett formula is a representation of that that stops things like the tories giving highest funding to councils in swing seats.

But rather than another tier of government, what's wrong with using the MPs voted in as a subset to vote on similar issues that Holyrood do for Scotland. We shouldn't need another swathe of politicians to do this.

Agree with the Barnett comment, but could see Labour doing a similar thing mind.

[kaosmark2]

So what you're saying is that both you and snippers have no problems with Barnet, as long as the money the SNP divert to pet projects is made up by more than Barnet so that Scots don't suffer bad things as a result of SNP policies.

If the SNP get to decide how they distribute Scotland's share of UK money to Scottish councils - as they do - why the fuck do you think England shouldn't be allowed to politicise its money distribution in exactly the same way?

At least no one is forcing central policy onto those English councils to force them into greater debt, as the SNP have been doing in Scotland.

I disagree with the way the SNP spend it, and I don't agree with the devolution that does exist. Devolution is a half-arsed way of appeasing independent campaigners.

Divide and rule.

[kaosmark2]

Agree with the Barnett comment, but could see Labour doing a similar thing mind.

Labour have done similar things in the past, although not to the same extent. The last one was just outrageous electioneering.

[eFestivals]

English devolution is different ....

PS: if Scotland doesn't like being marginalised, perhaps it shouldn't have chosen to marginalised itself

[kaosmark2]

PS: if Scotland doesn't like being marginalised, perhaps it shouldn't have chosen to marginalised itself

I agree.