The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

I agree: which is why I'm not doing it. Neil is the one who keeps harking back to the Indyref.

PMSL. You've already said that you don't consider the self-determination issue settled.

To you, it's only settled when it gives you the result you want. Until then, it's up for reconsideration at the exact moment you know you'll win - while the exact moment that 'no' won counts for nothing, while your own will settles it forever. If you can see how that's taking the piss, you don't know what taking the piss is.

Meanwhile, the party you're supporting *IS* still fighting the indyref.

They're asking for more for Scotland than they offered an independent Scotland. Why?

One answer might be it's because the UK can provide for Scotland better than Scotland can provide for it;self, but snippers won't accept that version - because Scotland is gloriously wealthy, right - so it must be something else

Might it be that they're deliberately asking for more than they know is possible to deliver, so they can claim that the UK isn't looking after Scotland?

FFS, do you have your head up your arse to not see any of this?

[LJS]

PMSL. You've already said that you don't consider the self-determination issue settled.

To you, it's only settled when it gives you the result you want. Until then, it's up for reconsideration at the exact moment you know you'll win - while the exact moment that 'no' won counts for nothing, while your own will settles it forever. If you can see how that's taking the piss, you don't know what taking the piss is.

Meanwhile, the party you're supporting *IS* still fighting the indyref.

They're asking for more for Scotland than they offered an independent Scotland. Why?

One answer might be it's because the UK can provide for Scotland better than Scotland can provide for it;self, but snippers won't accept that version - because Scotland is gloriously wealthy, right - so it must be something else

Might it be that they're deliberately asking for more than they know is possible to deliver, so they can claim that the UK isn't looking after Scotland?

FFS, do you have your head up your arse to not see any of this?

Morning, Neil.

So what have I to do, Neil? Stop believing in independence, because a small majority in Scotland opposes it?

& what is the SNP supposed to do? Should it stop believing in independence? Should it not be campaigning for more powers for Scotland?

[LJS]

opinion poll on Europe

1 If there was a referendum on Britain's membership of the EU with the option of voting to stay in the EU or to leave it, how would you vote?

UK : stay 40%: leave 39%

Scotland: stay 48%: leave 36%

http://populus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/OmFT-Poll.pdf

[eFestivals]

opinion poll on Europe

1 If there was a referendum on Britain's membership of the EU with the option of voting to stay in the EU or to leave it, how would you vote?

UK : stay 40%: leave 39%

Scotland: stay 48%: leave 36%

http://populus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/OmFT-Poll.pdf

opinion poll on indie

yes: 45%

no: 55%

Are all polls meaningful, or just some of them?

Edited April 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

opinion poll on indie

yes: 45%

no: 55%

Are all polls meaningful, or just some of them?

The poll you mention was very meaningful. The one I mention is perhaps, interesting.

Probably academic, as it only becomes very interesting if we end up with an in-out referendum on Europe which currently looks unlikely.

[eFestivals]

The poll you mention was very meaningful. The one I mention is perhaps, interesting.

Probably academic, as it only becomes very interesting if we end up with an in-out referendum on Europe which currently looks unlikely.

oh, so only the polls you say count count.

good to know.

[LJS]

oh, so only the polls you say count count.

good to know.

What you on about now?

The poll I said counts was the referendum result which you constantly remind me of.

The other one, in my opinion , is only interesting. Feel free to not be interested.

[eFestivals]

The poll I said counts was the referendum result which you constantly remind me of.

yeah, it counts so much that the basis you were given it on, formally stated by the SNP & Scottish Govt as "once in a generation", counts for fuck all.

If you eventually win that vote, will you accept the result being revoked on the basis that others say it counts for fuck all?

Principles, eh? What a git.

Which is why the SNP don't have them, other than indie. I wouldn't expect anything else.

But from you, I expect a brain. Where's it gone?

[LJS]

yeah, it counts so much that the basis you were given it on, formally stated by the SNP & Scottish Govt as "once in a generation", counts for fuck all.

If you eventually win that vote, will you accept the result being revoked on the basis that others say it counts for fuck all?

Principles, eh? What a git.

Which is why the SNP don't have them, other than indie. I wouldn't expect anything else.

But from you, I expect a brain. Where's it gone?

We've been over this several times. I know what you think. you know what I think. You think I'm a git.

Have a nice day.

Edited April 16, 2015 by LJS

[eFestivals]

I know what you think. you know what I think.

Yep, I think consistency counts for something and you think it counts for nothing.

And that's what you called 'principled' for yourself and those of a like mind.

[LJS]

Yep, I think consistency counts for something and you think it counts for nothing.

And that's what you called 'principled' for yourself and those of a like mind.

I genuinely have no idea what you are on about!

[eFestivals]

I genuinely have no idea what you are on about!

you claim the SNP as principled.

I'm pointing out that the only principle is indy, and that consistency of idea isn't applied in trying to forward indy.

They're completely UNprincipled.

And your claim that they're principled towards social justice is laughable. Its abso0lutely nothing, zero, zilch, of what they're about - which is why it's wholly absent from their constitution.

Edited April 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

We've had quite a lot of chatter on here about the pros & cons of Jim Murphy. My learned friend, Comfy is not a big fan, its safe to say & I have been more than a little critical of his tactics which have often amounted to little more than shouting "vote SNP get Tory" & "the largest party gets to form the government"

So first of all, let me give him some credit for his column in the Herald today (reproduced in full as you you have to pay to see more than a few articles on the site). He has used the column to talk about his policies and only takes a passing side- swipe at the SNP. I have long complained that this is exactly what Scottish Labour has not been doing - so credit where credit is due - well done Jim.

And his stated aim to make Scotland the "fairest nation on earth" - well you couldn't fault the ambition there? I have been known to bang on a bit about fairness myself - although I don't believe I've ever set my sights quite as high as Jim has. And this is where my being nice to Jim ends - The proposals he outlines to achieve this gold standard fairness - mansion tax, 50% top tax rate - end exploitative zero hour contracts & increase the minimum wage to more than £8 over 5 years. Combine this with some extra spending on the health service. All good things, no doubt but will they really make Scotland the "fairest nation on earth?" I'm sorry Jim, but your claim is completely ridiculous & frankly insults the readers' intelligence.

The only "Scotland specific" policies in the article relate to the NHS - 1000 extra nurses & a couple of earmarked funds for mental health & cancer - again, worthy things, & I can't imagine anyone would argue with them. There is one glaring problem though, Labour in Westminster will have precisely no power to implement them. Health, as everyone surely now knows is a devolved matter & Westminster can fling as much money as it wants at Holyrood, but it can't force the Scottish government to spend it on extra nurses or specific bits of the NHS, In fact, to the best of my knowledge it can't even force it to spend it on health.They could spend it all on a big statue of Alex Salmond! So, admirable although they may be, Jim's promises are worthless.

How Labour plans to make Scotland the fairest nation on earth

Jim Murphy

Friday 17 April 2015

We have the opportunity to make Scotland the fairest country on earth if we elect a Labour Government just 20 days from now.

Today, in the East End of Glasgow, I will launch Scottish Labour's manifesto for the General Election. Over the past five years, it is working people who have paid the greatest price for a Tory Government.

People are £1,600 a year worse off, wages have fallen, and it seems that the only growth industries in our economy are food banks and payday lenders.

At the same time, the Tories are boasting about a recovery. But eight out of 10 new jobs in Scotland are in low-paid industries and the number of zero-hours contracts continues to increase.

This increase in low-wage, insecure jobs means that people are working longer and harder for less.

There has never been a more important time to stand up for that core working-class value that an honest day's work should be rewarded with a decent wage.

And that is what our manifesto does. It starts from a simple truth: Scotland only succeeds when working people succeed.

At its heart are solutions to the two biggest issues I've heard from people during this campaign: making work pay for working-class Scots and saving the NHS from the crisis that has emerged on the SNP's watch.

I believe in a Scotland where working-class families have the security of knowing that they have regular hours that will pay a decent wage.

Our manifesto will commit us to ending exploitative zero-hours contracts and making sure that people who work regular hours have a legal right to a regular contract after twelve weeks.

I believe that the minimum wage hasn't been rising fast enough, and has meant that people on low incomes have been struggling. That's why our manifesto will commit us to increasing the minimum wage to more than £8 an hour, more than double the rate of growth under the Tories.

And I believe that it should be those with the broadest shoulders who bear the burden of deficit reduction.

We will make fair choices on tax and reintroduce the 50p tax rate for people earning more than £150,000.

These are changes that will make sure our country works for working people again. But it doesn't end there.

People across Scotland are worried about the NHS. The SNP have missed their own accident and emergency waiting time targets in each of the last 288 weeks.

That is why the health service is central to our offer to the Scottish people at this election.

On Monday, Ed Miliband committed us to a mansion tax on properties worth more than £2 million.

Together with other changes the next Labour Government will make, this means a £1 billion bonus for Scotland's NHS. We have already said we would spend some of this money on 1,000 more nurses. But we will go further.

Today we will announce a £200m Mental Health Fund and a £200m Cancer Fund to combat two of the greatest scourges of Scotland's health.

Our Cancer Fund will help thousands of people going through the most distressing and worrying times of their lives by ensuring that everyone diagnosed with cancer has access to the best treatments and drugs.

It will also help us cut cancer waiting times so that we can have the best cancer survival rates in Europe.

When one in four Scots experience mental health problems at some point in their lives, we need to have a far greater focus on these issues.

So we will direct resources from our Mental Health Fund to support child mental health and focus on prevention and early intervention.

These are the changes we offer just 20 days from now. It is a Labour plan that can only be delivered by a Labour government.

But what is increasingly clear is that Scotland can unlock change with a Labour government or block change in May. Today's manifesto is our promise to create the fairest nation on earth. I want you to vote Labour to make it a reality.

[eFestivals]

And his stated aim to make Scotland the "fairest nation on earth" - well you couldn't fault the ambition there? I have been known to bang on a bit about fairness myself - although I don't believe I've ever set my sights quite as high as Jim has. And this is where my being nice to Jim ends - The proposals he outlines to achieve this gold standard fairness - mansion tax, 50% top tax rate - end exploitative zero hour contracts & increase the minimum wage to more than £8 over 5 years. Combine this with some extra spending on the health service. All good things, no doubt but will they really make Scotland the "fairest nation on earth?" I'm sorry Jim, but your claim is completely ridiculous & frankly insults the readers' intelligence.

Hmmmm, what's "fair"? It's one of those words which was heavily abused by the tories and LibDems five years back.

What was it that Leanna Wood said last night, something about "we can't afford any more austerity". The irony within that is delicious. But anyway, there's a bit of a clue in there, I'd say.

Is it "fair" to have your kids pay your bills, just because you don't fancy paying more taxes or cutting spending to actually afford all the things you want for yourself?

I'd say there's no room for the moral high ground when not paying your own way, tho I'm not necessarily suggesting that Jim has the answers either.

Spending your way out of trouble is possible in the right circumstances (whatever they might be) but it's far from guaranteed. France tried and failed, for example - and then you're deeper in the shit, and the cuts have to be deeper to get out of it.

The only "Scotland specific" policies in the article relate to the NHS - 1000 extra nurses & a couple of earmarked funds for mental health & cancer - again, worthy things, & I can't imagine anyone would argue with them. There is one glaring problem though, Labour in Westminster will have precisely no power to implement them. Health, as everyone surely now knows is a devolved matter & Westminster can fling as much money as it wants at Holyrood, but it can't force the Scottish government to spend it on extra nurses or specific bits of the NHS, In fact, to the best of my knowledge it can't even force it to spend it on health.They could spend it all on a big statue of Alex Salmond! So, admirable although they may be, Jim's promises are worthless.

so the Scottish public wouldn't hold the SNP to account for taking the money for something else when you knew it was in-theory ear-marked for 1,000 nurses?

Even if you gave the SNP a free pass (tho I know you wouldn't ) it's still about a billion quid to get spent on other things in Scotland, so it's a benefit to Scotland.

FFS, someone is offering to chuck Scotland money - the very thing you say you want - and it's still the wrong thing to do. You're feckin mental!!

Which just goes to show how much the we-hate-labour mass delusion has taken over.

Edited April 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

Hmmmm, what's "fair"? It's one of those words which was heavily abused by the tories and LibDems five years back.

What was it that Leanna Wood said last night, something about "we can't afford any more austerity". The irony within that is delicious. But anyway, there's a bit of a clue in there, I'd say.

Is it "fair" to have your kids pay your bills, just because you don't fancy paying more taxes or cutting spending to actually afford all the things you want for yourself?

I'd say there's no room for the moral high ground when not paying your own way, tho I'm not necessarily suggesting that Jim has the answers either.

Spending your way out of trouble is possible in the right circumstances (whatever they might be) but it's far from guaranteed. France tried and failed, for example - and then you're deeper in the shit, and the cuts have to be deeper to get out of it.

so the Scottish public wouldn't hold the SNP to account for taking the money for something else when you knew it was in-theory ear-marked for 1,000 nurses?

Even if you gave the SNP a free pass (tho I know you wouldn't ) it's still about a billion quid to get spent on other things in Scotland, so it's a benefit to Scotland.

FFS, someone is offering to chuck Scotland money - the very thing you say you want - and it's still the wrong thing to do. You're feckin mental!!

Which just goes to show how much the we-hate-labour mass delusion has taken over.

On fairness: promise to make Scotland fairer - that's fine - the "fairest nation on earth" - imagine is the SNP had said that?

As for the NHS thing - of course you are right the Scottish government would have to spend all or most of it on the NHS but I'm sure there is an argument that there are better ways to spend it than on 1000 nurses - so again its just stupid.

[eFestivals]

On fairness: promise to make Scotland fairer - that's fine - the "fairest nation on earth" - imagine is the SNP had said that?

They've said and you repeat all the time that they'd give Scotland economic growth beyond any developed nation on earth, and you keep a straight face.

As for the NHS thing - of course you are right the Scottish government would have to spend all or most of it on the NHS but I'm sure there is an argument that there are better ways to spend it than on 1000 nurses - so again its just stupid.

PMSL - you're just looking for a reason to reject the hated Labour.

Much of modern politics is about the difficult choices of where best to spend the money, and you recently argued that you can always point at something more worthy.

Meanwhile, more money for healthcare is just about top of Sturgeon's demands that she spins off daily, so for you to find a reason to moan would be churlish at best I reckon.

Edited April 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

They've said and you repeat all the time that they'd give Scotland economic growth beyond any developed nation on earth, and you keep a straight face.

Actually, neither them nor me have said that, but you've still criticised both of us for that, but you think the "fairest nation on earth" is beyond criticism. pass me the Tena Man.

PMSL - you're just looking for a reason to reject the hated Labour.

Nope, I don't hate Labour. I hope they form the next government

Much of modern politics is about the difficult choices of where best to spend the money, and you recently argued that you can always point at something more worthy.

Meanwhile, more money for healthcare is just about top of Sturgeon's demands that she spins off daily, so for you to find a reason to moan would be churlish at best I reckon.

So what;'s wrong with "we will give £1bn extra to the Scottish Government to improve healthcare in Scotland. This will allow the SG to emply an additional 1000 nurses and etc etc." That's what anyone with a brain would say.

I take it you have forgotten how you tore us Snipers limb from limb for suggesting that voting yes would protect the NHS. you said that was ridiculous as it was a devolved power. Meanwhile you think it's fine for Labour to make commitments as to how the Scottish Government will spend money. Its just politically inept.

Edited April 17, 2015 by LJS

[eFestivals]

Actually, neither them nor me have said that, but you've still criticised both of us for that, but you think the "fairest nation on earth" is beyond criticism. pass me the Tena Man.

So both you and the SNP themselves now accept that Scotland will be 10%+ poorer than it currently is after indie, and forever?

Because that's how things will be if iScotland doesn't grow its economy at record rates.

Nope, I don't hate Labour. I hope they form the next government

yep, you hope that so much you'll be deliberately voting against them

Does that mean when you say you want indie you'll be voting 'no'?

So what;'s wrong with "we will give £1bn extra to the Scottish Government to improve healthcare in Scotland. This will allow the SG to emply an additional 1000 nurses and etc etc." That's what anyone with a brain would say.

Nope.

Labour are very deliberately saying that the NHS needs this extra funding, and extra funding is to be raised specifically for the NHS. Extra funding isn't being raised just to give Scotland extra funding.

The "for nurses" bit might be a bit too specific, but that's probably just being used as a way to VERY clearly define it's money for the NHS, and not merely general Scottish funding, to try and avoid the SNP from using it as general extra funding.

I take it you have forgotten how you tore us Snipers limb from limb for suggesting that voting yes would protect the NHS.

no, I've not forgotten it, but you've forgotten WHY I said it

I said it because the facts already prove that the SNP are NOT protecting the Scottish NHS, by the very fact that the SNP have been stealing NHS funding for pet nationalist projects.

you said that was ridiculous as it was a devolved power.

I said it was a ridiculous thing for the SNP to moan about NHS funding when the SNP have been stealing that NHS funding.

Meanwhile you think it's fine for Labour to make commitments as to how the Scottish Government will spend money. Its just politically inept.

No, I think it's fine for Labour to raise extra funds with a sp[ecific purpose in mind.

What would be inept would be to raise extra funds with no purpose in mind.

Westminster is the UK's govt, as it's passed you by. It sets taxes and raises funds for specific things, and not for nothing at all which you're saying here is the smart thing to do.

Edited April 18, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

No amount of wriggling & squirming alters the FACT that Murphy is making spending commitments he is not in a position to keep.

On the old deficit thingy. I'm 56. How many years of my life has the UK run a deficit?

[eFestivals]

No amount of wriggling & squirming alters the FACT that Murphy is making spending commitments he is not in a position to keep.

And no amount of squirming will hide the fact that you're criticising Murphy for doing *EXACTLY* what you and the SNP are demanding Labour should do, which is give Scotland more money for its NHS.

On the old deficit thingy. I'm 56. How many years of my life has the UK run a deficit?

probably nearly every year.

The point is not about "running a deficit", the point is about the MUCH greater size of Scotland's deficit.

Using the distractionary squirrel of the UK doesn't remove Scotland's significant deficit problem, and only shows you as someone who is unwilling to face up to Scotland's significant deficit problem.

And yet, they'll be no running away from it if you get your dream. You cannot vote it away, as France discovered and Greece is working out right now.

A Scotland run on fantasist dogma is not going to be a successful Scotland, it will be a bankrupt Scotland.

Edited April 18, 2015 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

PMSL - you're just looking for a reason to reject the hated Labour.

Neil, I think this is an interesting form of words you go with here. You are choosing to ignore what LJS told us a while back about how he decided on a name for his son I take it ? I have lived for all my life within 30mins of Cumnock and I have told you more than once that I have never in my life in any election ever voted for the Tories. I have also spent decades NOT voting for the SNP. I`ll let you join the dots

Genuinely interested if your good self ( or any of our other friends down south ) see whats happening with the SNP in Scotland as having anything to do with Scottish folks hating Labour ?

In my opinion you couldn`t be more wrong. Generally speaking " we " dont vote Tory and we return a shit load of Labour MP`s. The red rosette on a monkey days ended though a few years before the Indy ref but some folk outwith Scotland don`t seem to understand that. In my view, this talk of us hating Labour comes from Labour supporters down South who refuse to acknowledge Scottish Labours part in their own down fall ( even though the previous gaffer laid out the " branch office " reasons - her words ). It has become easier to blame it on the Indy ref even though this ignores what happened in the last Scottish election.

I was annoyed when Murphy beat the Union choice and became leader. I have given my reasons a few times on here ( since before Christmas ) on why I don`t think Murphy is fit for purpose and the 6 or 7 things I have highlighted ( backed up by bbc links ) have been swept under the carpet - apart from his continuing expenses claims as Neil was able to attack a guy from the SNP who wrongly pulled the same scam - as we know this means Murphy is blameless of everything

I said the last time that I wouldn`t lay out all my problems with Murphy ( or mud slinging as it was called ) again on here but I remain very comfortable with my view that Murphy is an imposter in the role of Scottish Labour Leader. Of course the Scottish people will soon have the chance to decide on that. He said yesterday that " the party of Donald Dewar and John Smith is back in business " In my opinion he is way wide of the mark. As I`ve said before, I agreed with Jim Sillars who I heard saying in our town hall that an Independent Scotland would hopefully give him the chance to vote Labour again. I apologies for even mentioning Murphys name alongside some of these other Scots who did so much for the Labour party.

Oh and I liked the use of " Dont believe the hype " at the end of his savior of the Union video

Great tune

[Comfy Bean]

No amount of wriggling & squirming alters the FACT that Murphy is making spending commitments he is not in a position to keep.

Hope your well sir. You still following the spiders ? Looking at the league tables our swords could cross in a play off down here in Burns country. Another dreadful effort by the honest men today. Will buy you a pint if it happens.......as long as you promise to let us win

The number of nurses and doctors he`s bringing in next year goes up by the day. Does he plan on training any of them, or are they already fully trained. Remember Labour are also insisting that they must all speak English as well

Anywayz, serious question, I`m not clued up on this so happy if anyone can fill me in. Where`s Murpho going with this £1600 to all school leaver who don`t go on to further education ? Plus his new plan of letting Apprentices travel all over Scotland free on public transport. I honestly can`t follow it so keeping an open mind. Hopefully someone can confirm this is actually what he is going to do and how it will work ?

Oh and why is he freezing the Council Tax ?

[Comfy Bean]

We've had quite a lot of chatter on here about the pros & cons of Jim Murphy. My learned friend, Comfy is not a big fan, its safe to say & I have been more than a little critical of his tactics which have often amounted to little more than shouting "vote SNP get Tory" & "the largest party gets to form the government"

So first of all, let me give him some credit for his column in the Herald today (reproduced in full as you you have to pay to see more than a few articles on the site). He has used the column to talk about his policies and only takes a passing side- swipe at the SNP. I have long complained that this is exactly what Scottish Labour has not been doing - so credit where credit is due - well done Jim.

Guilty as charged sir although I have kind of made my peace over his appointment. I am happy to join in with the spirit of credit where it`s due. He has " a personality " and he also has a big presence. I can see why Milliband would have thought he could come in ( with McTernan ) and shake things up a bit. According to the Polls this has back fired but i genuinely can see how Ed may have thought it could have went the other way. It still could of course. His antics used to annoy me but when he actually name checked the Daily Record during the debate the other night I laughed ( in a nice way ) he is certainly gallous and we like a bit of that. It doesnt even annoy me now when he is pictured ( daily...in the Record ) jogging along the Clyde in a retro Scotland tap swigging from a can of the ginger. For all I know, he maybe gives some of his cash to all the shoeless children who apparently turn up at his surgeries every week

[eFestivals]

Genuinely interested if your good self ( or any of our other friends down south ) see whats happening with the SNP in Scotland as having anything to do with Scottish folks hating Labour ?

I've formed my opinion that the SNP voters "hate" (definitely 'hate') Labour by the amount of times I've seen SNP voters express their hatred (using that very word) of Labour.

Sorry that I haven't made it up.

I'm sure that won't stop you telling me a myth tho.

[eFestivals]

Hope your well sir. You still following the spiders ? Looking at the league tables our swords could cross in a play off down here in Burns country. Another dreadful effort by the honest men today. Will buy you a pint if it happens.......as long as you promise to let us win

The number of nurses and doctors he`s bringing in next year goes up by the day. Does he plan on training any of them, or are they already fully trained. Remember Labour are also insisting that they must all speak English as well

Anywayz, serious question, I`m not clued up on this so happy if anyone can fill me in. Where`s Murpho going with this £1600 to all school leaver who don`t go on to further education ? Plus his new plan of letting Apprentices travel all over Scotland free on public transport. I honestly can`t follow it so keeping an open mind. Hopefully someone can confirm this is actually what he is going to do and how it will work ?

Oh and why is he freezing the Council Tax ?

and just to prove the point, you prove your hatred just here.

Murphy is trying to give Scotland extra money, excatly as the SNP have demanded.

And you hate it.

You hate it so much, you invent an untruth, by saying "The number of nurses and doctors he`s bringing in next year goes up by the day" when it's the exact same number as he's been saying for serveral months, and the only number he's ever given.

You can't knock him down with the truth, so you revert to myths.

Just like when YOU present Murphy as evil personified for doing the identical thing to an SNP MP who is righteousness personified.

But i've got it all wrong.

Edited April 19, 2015 by eFestivals