The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

On, a lighter note, Scottish Labour have made a big deal of the SNP not chiselling in stone that there will not be another indyref. Although they have made it clear that in order to hold one they will need to win a vote on a manifesto that clearly states they will seek one. This manifesto clearly does not include this. Now the fact that it doesn't include a commitment for a new indyref & they have clearly said again & again & again that this election is not about independence would be enough for most folk. But not new Labour. they didn't specifically say no new indyref - or as they put it, it wasn't ruled out by the SNP.

If you want some light entertainment you may wish to check out #NotRuledOutByTheSNP on Mactwitter

what aren't you getting about the SNP wanting to divide the UK and improverish us all?

Just because it's not a current pledge - because they know they'll lose, again - doesn't mean that they've stopped working towards it, by trying to create divisions to drive the wedge in further.

The SNP - committed to spending English money while saying that Scotland is gloriously rich.

And yet you can't see the dupliciousness.

[LJS]

what aren't you getting about the SNP wanting to divide the UK and improverish us all?

Just because it's not a current pledge - because they know they'll lose, again - doesn't mean that they've stopped working towards it, by trying to create divisions to drive the wedge in further.

The SNP - committed to spending English money while saying that Scotland is gloriously rich.

And yet you can't see the dupliciousness.

Neil again, falling for Tory propaganda. You sound like John Major.

[eFestivals]

The sad thing is that you are (at least partly) right.

after over a year of trying to get you to face up to the truth of the Scottish financial position and how it would bring worse-than-tory austerity onto Scotland, I'll take those words of yours as a big victory.

Now, go out and tell the other indie supporters what you've just realised, and that they'd be punching themselves in the face.

Remember, I've always been against indie because of how it would harm the poor in Scotland. The UK might be shit, but there can be much worse shit and the SNP can take you there if Scotland is really that stupid.

[eFestivals]

Neil again, falling for Tory propaganda. You sound like John Major.

No, I'm listening to SNP propaganda you deaf man.

I'm pulling it apart like you never will, because you're blinded by pathetic nationalism.

[LJS]

No, I'm listening to SNP propaganda you deaf man.

I'm pulling it apart like you never will, because you're blinded by pathetic nationalism.

You know me so well, Neil!

[eFestivals]

So.....stars of the campaign or " snakes "?

What we thinking. Are we seeing the smaller parties bringing progressive politics to Westminster....could we be moving away from 2 party politics?

I'll just remind you that Nick Clegg was the 'star' of the last election.

And no, we won't be seeing the smaller partries bringing progressive politics to Westminster. The SNP would have to first have a progressive polcity - just one would be nice.

Just ask Swinney what progressive policies the SNP have delivered, and he'll tell you he doesn't know of any.

(it's on iPlayer in case you missed it).

[eFestivals]

You know me so well, Neil!

dammit, just for a second your brain started to break on thru the Scotch mist, but now you're back in the zoo with the other ostriches.

Edited April 21, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

after over a year of trying to get you to face up to the truth of the Scottish financial position and how it would bring worse-than-tory austerity onto Scotland, I'll take those words of yours as a big victory.

Now, go out and tell the other indie supporters what you've just realised, and that they'd be punching themselves in the face.

Remember, I've always been against indie because of how it would harm the poor in Scotland. The UK might be shit, but there can be much worse shit and the SNP can take you there if Scotland is really that stupid.

Apologies, Neil, the bit I was agreeing with was the bit about Labour having moved a bit back to the left & is offering the best policies for some time.

Apologies, if I wasn't clear that I still believe most of the rest of what you say is bollocks.

In other news, I'm you'll welcome support for PR in Snp manifesto.

[eFestivals]

Apologies, Neil, the bit I was agreeing with was the bit about Labour having moved a bit back to the left & is offering the best policies for some time.

Apologies, if I wasn't clear that I still believe most of the rest of what you say is bollocks.

Oh, I'm sorry for thinking your brain worked after all.

Back to "I want worse than tory austerty" for you and the other snippers then.

In other news, I'm you'll welcome support for PR in Snp manifesto.

It's not particularly the claimed policies I have issue with, but is that a bit too thoughtful for you?

Edited April 21, 2015 by eFestivals

[russycarps]

Progressive!

So isolating yourself and creating division is progressive now is it?

Utterly laughable.

Nationalism is as far from progressive as you can get.

[eFestivals]

Progressive!

So isolating yourself and creating division is progressive now is it?

Utterly laughable.

Nationalism is as far from progressive as you can get.

they're not progressive - as admitted by Swinney yesterday, when he couldn't name a single progressive SNP policy.

They're Blairites in their recent policies, and - laughably against the 'progressive' claims - that's what Scotland loves. Freebies for the middle classes at the expense of the poor.

Cuts to the NHS, cuts to education, the most aggressive police force in the UK (with stop & search over 10 times the average), and the doubling of councils debts - this is the SNP's record in govt, and the Scottish people have lapped it up.

Edited April 21, 2015 by eFestivals

[kaosmark2]

Blairite politics is what the whole of the UK wants generally. Right of centre, with a healthy dose of fear-mongering and a massive superficial facade of pretending to care about the poor and vulnerable while actually abandoning them.

Ed running against his brother to break the party away from new labour was the best thing for the party in 20 years.

[eFestivals]

Blairite politics is what the whole of the UK wants generally. Right of centre, with a healthy dose of fear-mongering and a massive superficial facade of pretending to care about the poor and vulnerable while actually abandoning them.

I don't disagree at all - it's why the parties that will get a sizeable vote get those votes, and why those parties chase "the middle ground".

What I find so funny are the snippers' claims about the SNP. Their record in the SG shows them as Blairite thru-and-thru, and certainly no more leftwards than Labour.

What the SNP offer is unprincipled popularism, and nowt else.

[kaosmark2]

The SNP are just adopting the same facade as most. I don't think they're any more guilty of it than most other parties.

[russycarps]

exactly. I've got no real issue with people having these views. It's a free country.

It's the holier than thou attitude from the nationalists that irks me. They claim they and their fellow scots are left leaning, when the facts prove the exact opposite.

Are the nationalists in this thread delusional or deceitful? I think of the 2 main protagonists in this thread, one is the former, one is the latter....

[eFestivals]

The SNP are just adopting the same facade as most. I don't think they're any more guilty of it than most other parties.

Nope, not true.

Other parties have policy principles they adhere to in some sort of loose manner.

The only one of those the SNP have is towards indie, but with nothing towards 'the people'. They pick policies from any position if they believe it will carry them towards their one real aim.

[eFestivals]

Are the nationalists <snip> delusional or deceitful?

I'd say you've missed one - hopeful. Hopeful beyond all reason, but hopeful.

But mostly they've been spun a national myth for 30+ years, and it's finally taken hold at the same time as Thatcherite ideas of 'me me me' have finally penetrated in Scotland.

That Thatcherite link is a bigger thing than any Scot is ever likely to admit.

Edited April 21, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

exactly. I've got no real issue with people having these views. It's a free country.

It's the holier than thou attitude from the nationalists that irks me. They claim they and their fellow scots are left leaning, when the facts prove the exact opposite.

Are the nationalists in this thread delusional or deceitful? I think of the 2 main protagonists in this thread, one is the former, one is the latter....

Guessing, I'm deceitful.

Guessing you have been spending too much time with Neil & Barry.

I resisted the temptation to join in the name-calling.

I'm a grown up (albeit a deceitful one)

Peace & love.

Edited April 21, 2015 by LJS

[LJS]

I'd say you've missed one - hopeful. Hopeful beyond all reason, but hopeful.

But mostly they've been spun a national myth for 30+ years, and it's finally taken hold at the same time as Thatcherite ideas of 'me me me' have finally penetrated in Scotland.

That Thatcherite link is a bigger thing than any Scot is ever likely to admit.

Because it's pish.

[eFestivals]

Because it's pish.

Hmmmmmmm.

"me first" - tick.

"middle class privileges at the poor's expense" - tick

Etc, etc, etc.

Scotland has finally woken up to the fact the world has changed in the last 30+ years and decided it's time they got on board instead of harking back to the long-dead past.

At least, that's how it was 6 months ago. Today they've confusing the fuck out of you via the lies of theirs you've swallowed.

[LJS]

Hmmmmmmm.

"me first" - tick.

"middle class privileges at the poor's expense" - tick

Etc, etc, etc.

Scotland has finally woken up to the fact the world has changed in the last 30+ years and decided it's time they got on board instead of harking back to the long-dead past.

At least, that's how it was 6 months ago. Today they've confusing the fuck out of you via the lies of theirs you've swallowed.

How's about we compare like for like Snp record in government vs Labour's last record in government.

Or Labour manifesto vs. SNP manifesto.

[eFestivals]

How's about we compare like for like Snp record in government vs Labour's last record in government.

That's easy. They both gave things to the middle classes at the expense of the poor.

(do note: today's Labour party is in a different place to that, tho not entirely, i'll happily concede. But that's the result of a population that won't vote "proper left" - not even in Scotland, don't forget, where you actually have a system where a vote for them would count).

Have you watched Swinney fail to name a single progressive policy by the SNP yet?

At least Labour do have a record of delivering progressive policies. Get back to me if the SNP get around to doing their first.

Or Labour manifesto vs. SNP manifesto.

That wouldn't be comparing like with like, tho, would it?

It's easy to fill a document with demands for world peace and momma's apple pie if you know you don't have a hope in hell of delivering them, so you'll never be called to account for them.

Labour have said what they'll *actually* do.

You know, different to the many different and often conflicting things the SNP say but know they'll never have to do or be held responsible for.

Or have you already forgotten that Sturgeon is now claiming that Scotland desperately needs £3Bn a year extra spent on it by Westminster, but was happy to let Scotland swim in shit if they'd got their indie dream?

Edited April 21, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

Nope, not true.

Other parties have policy principles they adhere to in some sort of loose manner.

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

The only one of those the SNP have is towards indie, but with nothing towards 'the people'. They pick policies from any position if they believe it will carry them towards their one real aim.

[LJS]

That's easy. They both gave things to the middle classes at the expense of the poor.

Another bucket of pish you keep flinging over us. Any government expenditure that doesn't directly benefit the poor can be presented this way. You know that which is why you usually bring out your squirrel when I make this point.

(do note: today's Labour party is in a different place to that, tho not entirely, i'll happily concede. But that's the result of a population that won't vote "proper left" - not even in Scotland, don't forget, where you actually have a system where a vote for them would count).

No. it's the result of a party who has largely lost its principle & makes up it's policy based on what focus groups say.

Have you watched Swinney fail to name a single progressive policy by the SNP yet?

No, send me a link & i'll watch it - I'm sure it's no more or less relevant than that excruciating one where Ed repeats the same thing again & again & again.

At least Labour do have a record of delivering progressive policies. Get back to me if the SNP get around to doing their first.

Labour had a few good ones in 1997 - which I have already given them credit for - minimum wage - some real measures to tackle child poverty - but then Tony fell under the Spell of George W & big business & famous people with lots of money. Iraq was the last straw for many - me included - although I can remember a number of occasions when I said "that's it, I'm never voting for them again" (I did)

As for the SNP, well I'm already on record as criticising them for being too cautious - not radical enough. But they've done nothing progressive? Simply not true

they've increased free nursery places.

scrapped the bedroom tax

reduced travel costs for remote island communities

reduced voting age to 16

scrapped right to buy

pay living wage to all Scottish government employees (or more obvioulsy)

have a gender balanced cabinet

reduced drink drive limit

It may not be the most impressive list - but remember they have no power over welfare & no power over redistributive taxation

That wouldn't be comparing like with like, tho, would it?

Yes. certainly more than comparing Labour's manifesto to the Indy white paper

It's easy to fill a document with demands for world peace and momma's apple pie if you know you don't have a hope in hell of delivering them, so you'll never be called to account for them.

Oh really, care to tell me what all the fuss is about? We've all criticised Labour for being Tory Lite. as soon as they move a wee pickle to the left, you cream your pants. When the SNP do the same, you just deny it.

Labour have said what they say they'll *actually* do.

sorted

You know, different to the many different and often conflicting things the SNP say but know they'll never have to do or be held responsible for.

Or have you already forgotten that Sturgeon is now claiming that Scotland desperately needs £3Bn a year extra spent on it by Westminster, but was happy to let Scotland swim in shit if they'd got their indie dream?

must have missed that bit. Maybe she didn't quite phrase it that way?

[LJS]

Neil, one of your frequent lines of attack on your arch enemies the SNP. Is how they rob the poor working class college students to featherbed the toffs who go to uni.

I've had a few attempts at responding to this but, truth is, I am no expert (not something you'd ever hear Neil say)

Here is the other side of the story from someone who clearly has more knowledge of Scottish further & higher education than me & probay nearly as much as Neil.

Also, like Neil, she is clearly biaised.

Difference is she admits it.

Enjoy.

http://misssymartin.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/behind-soundbite-college-places.html?spref=tw&m=1

Edited April 21, 2015 by LJS