The Dirty Independence Question

[kaosmark2]

another dictionary definition of nationalism

advocacy of political independence for a particular country.

Yes, but I think the extreme one is important to mention. Moreso because that's the attitude the political class (of multiple colours, in various countries) try and exploit.

[eFestivals]

You well know what my issues with party in Scotland are.

yep, that they're not a Scottish party. They never were, and they never will be.

You'll have to start one. No one is stopping you.

[eFestivals]

Are you really trying to be stupid today? cos you are doing really well.

She can't rule it our indefinitely - even you must accept that from a party whose goal is independence. That is completely different from saying it must be in every manifesto.

I'm pointing out your own stated contradictions.

You've said Sturgeon has no moral right to rule out an indyref, and you're also saying she should (in certain circumstances) rule it out.

What part of your own statements is confusing you so much?

[DomDom1984]

It won't be in this manifesto as it might be a bit too soon after the last one. SNP will hold Holyrood for a while though.

[eFestivals]

not what I said

Then how are Labour marginalising you?

Do bear in mind that they only have a duty towards their own policies and supporters of those policies, cos we wouldn't want you to spout a myth.

[eFestivals]

It won't be in this manifesto as it might be a bit too soon after the last one.

If that's the case sturgeon would have to problem saying it.

So please do tell me why she won't say it.

Either you've got it wrong, or Sturgeon is deceiving Scotland.

[kaosmark2]

If I remember rightly, prior to them winning Holyrood, the way they'd shown they could govern was by allying with the Tories.

[DomDom1984]

I'm not sure that they marginalise us. They take us for idiots though. Hence why they're about to get massacred.

[eFestivals]

another dictionary definition of nationalism

advocacy of political independence for a particular country.

I believe in civic nationalism

Nationalism is about that national group above all others, whether ethnic or civic.

[DomDom1984]

If that's the case sturgeon would have to problem saying it.

So please do tell me why she won't say it.

Either you've got it wrong, or Sturgeon is deceiving Scotland.

I think if she has another referendum so soon, she's an absolute idiot.

Her refusal to rule it out on this term does worry me.

[LJS]

I'm pointing out your own stated contradictions.

You've said Sturgeon has no moral right to rule out an indyref, and you're also saying she should (in certain circumstances) rule it out.

What part of your own statements is confusing you so much?

She can't rule it our indefinitely - even you must accept that from a party whose goal is independence. That is completely different from saying it must be in every manifesto.

[eFestivals]

I'm not sure that they marginalise us. They take us for idiots though. Hence why they're about to get massacred.

Would they be smaller idiots if they did everything you asked while you massacred them?

You're not going to vote for them whatever they do. They've worked that out about you even if you've not worked it about yourself.

Instead, they're going to look after their own. Do those words ring any bells with you?

[LJS]

Nationalism is about that national group above all others, whether ethnic or civic.

Are you suggesting I believe people who live in Scotland deserve better than those who live in England, or India, or Australia?

[DomDom1984]

You have no Idea what you're talking about with Scottish voters. Don't pretend that you do.

[eFestivals]

I think if she has another referendum so soon, she's an absolute idiot.

Her refusal to rule it out on this term does worry me.

well, take it up with her.

Ed has to make a choice. He won't deal with splitters, and because she won't rule it out he can't deal with her.

If she wants Ed to make a deal with her, her only chance is to put herself in a place where he feels it's possible to make that deal.

I wonder if loans in Scotland are agreed by the customer telling the bank the terms of the loan?

[eFestivals]

She can't rule it our indefinitely - even you must accept that from a party whose goal is independence. That is completely different from saying it must be in every manifesto.

Get back to me when you've worked out if the SNP stand for a referendum in the next 5 years or not, and what your own position is towards one.

So far, you've only given contradictary bollocks.

Meanwhile, i've still to hear anyone say what's so dreadful about voting for policies you support. It looks like the snippers don't want SNP policies.

[LJS]

I think if she has another referendum so soon, she's an absolute idiot.

Her refusal to rule it out on this term does worry me.

I think she believes that too -If the SNP lost a second referendum that would be catastrophic for them. I've heard it suggested she won't go for a second indyref until there is a solid 60% in favour.

If she has any sense (which it appears she has) she will work hard to make Scotland stronger economically & win as many additional powers as she can, so the leap to independence is shorter.

There is a difficult balancing act for her because undoubtedly there are those in the SNP's ranks who think we should have another referendum tomorrow. Meanwhile, if she is in any way part of a successful Westminster Government (even supporting from the wings) some may conclude that we don't need Indy - you've kind of made that point yourself I think.

[kaosmark2]

Here's a question for the nats:

Would you prefer to win a referendum on Scottish independence, or for the UK as a whole to win a referendum for electoral reform of Westminster?

[eFestivals]

You have no Idea what you're talking about with Scottish voters. Don't pretend that you do.

As I've proven constantly with LJS and comfy, I know more about what Scottish voters think than they do themselves. I can even often predict what they'll say next week, knowing what they'll be thinking even before they're thinking it.

It takes no special skills, it only takes reading the cybernats before they do.

Do a large chunk of Scottish voters think Labour has to lick their arse? Yes they do.

As this discussion here today proves. You're outraged that Labour sticks to it's principles when you want them to have your principles.

Yet if they had your principles, that would make them an English nationalist party, who wants everything it can get for England at the expense of other parts of the UK.

(cue mythical replys )

It's a good fucking job for Scotland that Labour are not what you want them to be, else you'd really be fucked - by £10Bn a year. That's your whole SNHS gone in a blink!

Edited May 1, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

As you well know, Neil. I have never denied the existence of the rare Torius Scotticus. It once appeared close to extinction but increasingly its cries can be heard echoing through the Glens again.

They seem to have managed to evolve & be seen as slightly different from the more numerous Anclicus Thatcheritus Bastardus.

There leader is fairly popular & comes across & as witty & personable.

Still wouldn't vote for them but it's no surprise that they are staging a wee bit of a revival especially with so many No voters looking for a new habitat.

which only goes to show that many Scots don't vote for policies, they vote due to peer pressure.

As if know one knew that.

Next up, a Scottish person wins a UK reality programme, not because they're good but because they're Scottish. Oh, that's not next up, that's a over a decade's worth of history.

[eFestivals]

Are you suggesting I believe people who live in Scotland deserve better than those who live in England, or India, or Australia?

It's not a suggestion, it's a fact as you know.

The problem for you is that you don't like the reverse side of it, but you've never stopped to think about that part.

[russycarps]

English nationalist parties should be encouraged. Not in a BNP sense of course. But why the fuck not?

hurrah! we've got another raving nationalist to join LJS and comfy! That's evened out the sides a bit

[LJS]

Here's a question for the nats:

Would you prefer to win a referendum on Scottish independence, or for the UK as a whole to win a referendum for electoral reform of Westminster?

I'd prefer the first but as long as we are in the UK I would want the second. Christ knows how you guys would cope with the ramification of PR though. you'd be going through this every 5 years.

[russycarps]

Are you suggesting I believe people who live in Scotland deserve better than those who live in England, or India, or Australia?

unequivocally YES.

[LJS]

It's not a suggestion, it's a fact as you know.

The problem for you is that you don't like the reverse side of it, but you've never stopped to think about that part.

Astonishing

Neil is now correcting me on what I beleive. He knows my beliefs better than I do.