The Dirty Independence Question

[kaosmark2]

I'd prefer the first

I think that proves Russy right here:

unequivocally YES.

Christ knows how you guys would cope with the ramification of PR though. you'd be going through this every 5 years.

I said earlier today in the GE thread, that I believe minority government is where real democracy arrives. Parties voting on a policy-by-policy basis, particularly if the seat-share is actually representative, increases the chances of the political process better representing the views of the people. I won't like every policy, because a lot of people in my country (UK btw) are incredibly stupid, but I'd prefer to be screwed legitimately.

[LJS]

hurrah! we've got another raving nationalist to join LJS and comfy! That's evened out the sides a bit

I love the way you guys listen

Here are DomDom's 1st two posts today

I just want to say that if the SNP are able to provide a strong voice for Scotland and be effective in that role, I'd be more than happy to remain part of the UK.

The SNP are always about independence. It's the entire point of the party.

I don't think we need it to prosper. We need a fairer government. We may get one.

DomDom, you are a raving Nationalist. How do you feel about that?

[russycarps]

I love the way you guys listen

Here are DomDom's 1st two posts today

DomDom, you are a raving Nationalist. How do you feel about that?

Votes for a nationalist party.

Takes offence at being called a nationalist.

You couldnt make it up!!

[LJS]

Votes for a nationalist party.

Takes offence at being called a nationalist.

You couldnt make it up!!

Most of the polls are now suggesting well over 50% support for the SNP

But still less than 50% support for Indy

I know it's a bit complicated for you, but a vote for the SNP at this election is not necessarily a vote for independence.

But of course you are inferior to us mighty Scots, the finest race in the world, strong rugged men, beautiful flame haired lassies. Once we free ourselves from your imperial chains we will set about returning Berwick to its rightful place in the Scottish Empire. The Tweed will overflow with your inferior English blood.

Oops - betrayed my inner thoughts there

[russycarps]

Most of the polls are now suggesting well over 50% support for the SNP

But still less than 50% support for Indy

I know it's a bit complicated for you, but a vote for the SNP at this election is not necessarily a vote for independence.

But of course you are inferior to us mighty Scots, the finest race in the world, strong rugged men, beautiful flame haired lassies. Once we free ourselves from your imperial chains we will set about returning Berwick to its rightful place in the Scottish Empire. The Tweed will overflow with your inferior English blood.

Oops - betrayed my inner thoughts there

but you and dom both want independence by your own admission! You are part of the less than 50%. You are nationalists. Why cant you accept it?

Edited May 1, 2015 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

I know it's a bit complicated for you, but a vote for the SNP at this election is not necessarily a vote for independence.

But it is always a vote for Scotland first.

To those who've grasped what most 5 years have, that sharing is the right thing, that's unacceptable.

[LJS]

But it is always a vote for Scotland first.

To those who've grasped what most 5 years have, that sharing is the right thing, that's unacceptable.

You are holding up the UK as some sort of role model for sharing.

Like when we shared the wealth of the Empire with the tobacco barons & slave traders of Glasgow & Liverpool.

Like when we shared the fruits of the labour of the workers in the industrial revolution with the mill owners & their new country estates.

Like when we shared the success of the London finance centre with the loadsa money, champagne swilling, Porsche driving Essex boys.

Like when we shared the profits from the sale of the nationalised industries with the spivs in the City of London.

Really?

I think I've caught your bladder problem.

[LJS]

but you and dom both want independence by your own admission! You are part of the less than 50%. You are nationalists. Why cant you accept it?

Can you read?

[eFestivals]

You are holding up the UK as some sort of role model for sharing.

for sharing its wealth around the regions without prejudice on a basis of perceived need, yes it is.

The division of wealth between individuals is a different thing, and that would only change in Scotland after indie if people in Scotland have an utterly different view towards capitalism. The pursuit of personal self-interest which is the drive for indie tells me that absolutely nothing of that will change.

[LJS]

But it is always a vote for Scotland first.

To those who've grasped what most 5 years have, that sharing is the right thing, that's unacceptable.

If its a vote for Scotland first, it's because the UK is broken, I've believed in this mirage of a fairer UK all my life.I'm really sorry if you feel we're letting you down by wanting to leave, but its just not working. Look at one of these pretty maps where they colour in the constituencies & tell me we are a United Kingdom. It's a myth. It's gone. Significant number in Scotland used to vote Tory. Plenty in Kent voted Labour. No more. We are a disunited kingdom. This is at the heart of Labour's problem. It can't win votes in Kent & Kilmarnock. Swansea & Southend. It's broken. It's outlived its purpose.

[russycarps]

Can you read?

Very well thank you.

Can you accept the consequences of your nationalist actions?

FYI the consequences are the poor north and south of the border being much worse off.

[eFestivals]

If its a vote for Scotland first, it's because the UK is broken,

How's it broken?

Not getting the political result you personally want isn't anything being broken, that's you (and me) on the wrong side of the biggest weight of opinion.

I've believed in this mirage of a fairer UK all my life.

So have i. I used to believe in fairies, too.

Just cos I believe in something doesn't mean it will happen, or that it will happen by redrawing the lines of opinion. Just because I'm king in my house doesn't mean I have a right to be king in my street, my town or my country.

I'm really sorry if you feel we're letting you down by wanting to leave, but its just not working. Look at one of these pretty maps where they colour in the constituencies & tell me we are a United Kingdom. It's a myth. It's gone. Significant number in Scotland used to vote Tory. Plenty in Kent voted Labour. No more. We are a disunited kingdom. This is at the heart of Labour's problem. It can't win votes in Kent & Kilmarnock. Swansea & Southend. It's broken. It's outlived its purpose.

So it's only united if it's a one-party state? FFS!

The amount of tory votes is shrinking. Until you lot kicked off a greater nationalism, the vote for the right was falling.

You've helped make the place more right wing, not more left wing.

Meanwhile, you can look at any constituency map of the UK for almost any time and see it pretty much the same. Labour wins in cities and industrial towns - and almost nowhere in the south (cos it has little of either) - and just about everywhere else is blue. Yes, even most of the north is blue. All of Scotland was blue in 1955.

The nat argument is sustained only in the arbitrary 'right' of Scotland to be an independent country and nothing else. There's no rational argument for it; the rational side is on the other side, based within the pointlessness of a one-culture island dividing and competing against the other half, adding to costs and inefficiencies, becoming most parochial and not less, and creating cross-border difficulties and hostilities where policies will inevitably differ.

Add in the fact that an iScotland doesn't have a hope of maintaining its current living standards and public facilities, and it's a mad pursuit of nothing better.

[LJS]

Very well thank you.

Can you accept the consequences of your nationalist actions?

IN MY OPINION the consequences are the poor north and south of the border being much worse off.

sorted for you

you are of course entitled to your opinion

[russycarps]

sorted for you

you are of course entitled to your opinion

it's an opinion backed up by facts, figures and an understanding of economics rather than hopes, dreams and fairy dust.

[LJS]

How's it broken?

Not getting the political result you personally want isn't anything being broken, that's you (and me) on the wrong side of the biggest weight of opinion.

You always fall back on this bullshit. I have never ever complained about not getting the result I want. Democracy is nothing to do with individuals getting the result they want. Yet another example of your puerile debating techniques. How long till we get to Neil's bedroom?

So have i. I used to believe in fairies, too.

Just cos I believe in something doesn't mean it will happen, or that it will happen by redrawing the lines of opinion. Just because I'm king in my house doesn't mean I have a right to be king in my street, my town or my country.

Ahh, we're down to Neil's street. so his bedroom can't be far away. As you've often pointed out, National boundaries are made up. I and many others woudl just liek to make them up in a different place. No offence intended.

So it's only united if it's a one-party state? FFS!

Absolutely not. but when support for one party is so disproportionately located in one area (& vice versa) It's maybe time to question whether it's really one country. As i've said before it might make more sense to split the UK into 2 countries with the divide somewhere north of Brmingham, but sadly there is no realistic mechanism for achieving that.

The amount of tory votes is shrinking. Until you lot kicked off a greater nationalism, the vote for the right was falling.

You've helped make the place more right wing, not more left wing.

Meanwhile, you can look at any constituency map of the UK for almost any time and see it pretty much the same. Labour wins in cities and industrial towns - and almost nowhere in the south (cos it has little of either) - and just about everywhere else is blue. Yes, even most of the north is blue. All of Scotland was blue in 1955.

I know that ... but it's more than that now I posted some figures a few days ago which no one bothered to reply to. If you take London out of the picture, The divide is truly frightening.

The nat argument is sustained only in the arbitrary 'right' of Scotland to be an independent country and nothing else. There's no rational argument for it; the rational side is on the other side, based within the pointlessness of a one-culture island dividing and competing against the other half, adding to costs and inefficiencies, becoming most parochial and not less, and creating cross-border difficulties and hostilities where policies will inevitably differ.

Why would we have cross border hostilities? I don't want them. Do you? Are there cross border hostilities between Belgium & Holland. Are you worried we will maraud across the border & steal your cattle?

Add in the fact that an iScotland doesn't have a hope of maintaining its current living standards and public facilities, and it's a mad pursuit of nothing better.

This is your only point with any substance to it, which is why I say the priority of the SNP should be to get as many powers as they can & show they can build the Scottish economy, before going for another referendum.

Just before you pee your pants again, this is not me admitting that Scotland woudl necessarily be an economic basket case.

[kaosmark2]

For the 24 months of my life I lived in Scotland, I lived in a Tory constituency. For the 24 years I've lived in England, I've lived in almost exclusively Labour constituencies, with the exception of now where I'm in one that is currently Lib Dem.

The divide is not north vs south. The divide is rural vs urban. Central constituencies in cities are mostly Labour/Lib Dem.

Edited May 1, 2015 by kaosmark2

[eFestivals]

You always fall back on this bullshit. I have never ever complained about not getting the result I want. Democracy is nothing to do with individuals getting the result they want. Yet another example of your puerile debating techniques. How long till we get to Neil's bedroom?

so no actual answer then.

Ahh, we're down to Neil's street. so his bedroom can't be far away. As you've often pointed out, National boundaries are made up. I and many others woudl just liek to make them up in a different place. No offence intended.

None taken.

But that does cause people down here to look up there in a different way to previously, taking the changed attitudes into account.

It doesn't only work in the way you want it to work.

Absolutely not. but when support for one party is so disproportionately located in one area (& vice versa) It's maybe time to question whether it's really one country. As i've said before it might make more sense to split the UK into 2 countries with the divide somewhere north of Brmingham, but sadly there is no realistic mechanism for achieving that.

Except the myth doesn't stand up to scruitiny.

Scotland has rarely made a difference to which party has formed the govt, whilst also getting the govt it voted for the vast majority of elections..

You of course won't get the govt you voted for this time, but that's one you can only blame on yourselves for a change.

I know that ... but it's more than that now I posted some figures a few days ago which no one bothered to reply to. If you take London out of the picture, The divide is truly frightening.

But London is about the only industrial city in a largely non-industrial south. It's nothing different to anywhere else, even Scotland.

The cities and industrial towns tend to vote Labour, and everywhere else votes for something else. It's much the same as it's always been.

If you care to notice, the number of tory seats is falling, and not growing.

Why would we have cross border hostilities? I don't want them. Do you? Are there cross border hostilities between Belgium & Holland. Are you worried we will maraud across the border & steal your cattle?

There will be a difference in policies in some areas, which will cause us to come into conflict. And easy example would be via different immigration policies, where Scotland might grant easy access to people who wanted to get to England.

I'm not saying anyone will want conflicts to happen, I'm saying it's guaranteed they will happen.

This is your only point with any substance to it, which is why I say the priority of the SNP should be to get as many powers as they can & show they can build the Scottish economy, before going for another referendum.

So is that you saying you want special UK investment until you're rich enough to run away, or are you saying you'll stand on your own feet and suffer the consequences?

[LJS]

For the 24 months of my life I lived in Scotland, I lived in a Tory constituency. For the 24 years I've lived in England, I've lived in almost exclusively Labour constituencies, with the exception of now where I'm in one that is currently Lib Dem.

The divide is not north vs south. The divide is rural vs urban. Central constituencies in cities are mostly Labour/Lib Dem.

I think you were right.

not any more. .. certainly not in scotland

Even before the current seismic shift, Edinburgh, which by any measure, is one of the UK's most prosperous cities had no conservative mp's. Rural prosperous middle/upper class Scotland has one.

[kaosmark2]

I think you were right.

not any more. .. certainly not in scotland

Even before the current seismic shift, Edinburgh, which by any measure, is one of the UK's most prosperous cities had no conservative mp's. Rural prosperous middle/upper class Scotland has one.

English cities don't have many tory MPs was what I was saying. The divide within England isn't Birmingham or wherever, it's urban/rural.

[LJS]

Maybe you guys who are endlessly telling us what is happening in scotland, might like to read this

It's from the Guardian which last time I checked was not pro indy - Oh & just in case it is too strange for you, it involves a politician interacting with real people - not party activists or invited focus groups - you won't find stuff like this on below the line comments in the guardian.

Scots out in force in Edinburgh as Nicola Sturgeon surges forth

“We can’t see you at the back,” someone yells as Nicola Sturgeon is mobbed on Leith Walk. A hundred supporters have gathered on an Edinburgh street for a ritual of elections up here: the unveiling of the last billboard of the campaign. But only a ring of fans around the Scottish National party leader can actually see the woman. She is short.

This crowd hasn’t been invited. They’ve just turned up. This is the public. Kilts are few. Only one St Andrew’s flag is flying. A young man with a ginger beard has come dressed as Sturgeon, not as mockery but devotion. Buses and garbage trucks toot as they go by. The crowd cheers.

I have never been in such a happy political mob. But it is cold staring down to the Firth of Forth. It would be the Scots, old-fashioned in so many ways, who still campaign outdoors.

Sturgeon has moved only a few feet in five minutes. She is helping fans take selfies. When they fumble she plucks their phones from them and has the job done in a second. I’m told there isn’t one she can’t operate. She knows them all. Sturgeon is the absolutely prepared politician.

“There we go,” she says. “Brilliant. How are you doing?” Children are brought forward to be touched. Pensioners queue to be hugged. The bearded boy in the frock shyly presents himself for approval.

Even in that crush, a little force field protects her. She’s resolutely neat. When she’s not smiling her mouth is tough and prim. It’s breakfast time but Sturgeon is wearing heavy television make up. There’s a long day ahead for the most popular political leader in the UK.

This corner of the city has been Labour forever but voted yes in last year’s referendum on independence. The polls show the area will be won next week by the SNP by a long, long way. It’s a shift so huge and so swift it still defies explanation.

Perhaps Edinburgh is a little to blame; a city built like an imperial capital looking for a nation to rule. Is there any town in Europe with so many statues waiting to be torn down, so many streets to be renamed? How can proud Scots live with George, Hanover and union?

But these people mobbing Sturgeon aren’t barracking for independence. ForScotland, but not independence. That their party is sweeping the country doesn’t mean they suddenly want to leave the United Kingdom. Polls show support for staying inside remains as strong as it was at the referendum.

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On Leith Walk they say what matters right now is the economy. If that’s fixed, Scotland can take another look at independence. It may have to wait no longer than the downfall of David Cameron’s government. “Oil has been discovered in the Shetlands,” I’m told. “It’s being kept a secret by the Tories.”

The billboard is tame: tartan slipcovers on the empty green benches of the House of Commons and the words “more power for Scotland. Vote SNP.” But in Glasgow, Labour was waiting later that morning with something far worse.

Everything about Jim Murphy’s little event in a car park on the Clyde had the cheerfulness of defeat. Party workers in red jackets with red balloons were all smiles. Murphy was bouncing on his toes. “There’s a week to go,” he announced as if this was news. “The sun’s out and there’s a huge amount of energy, a genuine amount of energy.”

The sun went as he positioned himself in front of the billboard. Who thought this up? A street sign with two arms that point in no particular direction: the first to “Labour’s fairer economy” and the second to “another SNP referendum”.

Murphy’s good humour is heroic. He refuses to clown for the cameras. “I could do a lot of things that would get me in the paper,” he observes. “I could sit on a tank and it would get me in the paper. I could feed you a scone and it would get me in the paper.”

Labour party polling shows the Scots are not in the mood right now for another go at independence. So while Labour beats up fears for the union down south, Murphy is promising to save his people from a referendum he knows all but the diehards don’t want. It’s a straddle. “Let’s leave last year’s disagreement to one side,” he says. “And build a better Scotland.”

He’s a goofy kind of guy, whippet fit, standing in the wind without a jacket. He must be freezing. Few men are called to face defeat on the scale he is facing. Even as his party pours resources into saving his seat, Murphy delivers his upbeat script: “I’ll confound the pundits, the critics and the bookies.”

What’s happening in Scotland is one of the political puzzles of the age. No one has the answers yet. The data isn’t in. Every party is up for blame: the SNP for spinning dreams; the Conservatives for feeding Scotland’s resentment; and Labour for losing its old progressive faith.

In Glasgow suburbs that were Labour’s territory until only a few months ago, Patrick Grady is leading a team of SNP canvassers. Old people live here in neat houses with gravel gardens. “Doors are no longer shut in our faces,” Grady says. “That’s definitely a change.”

Even those who voted no in the referendum welcome Grady’s team. There are long conversations about potholes and disability services. “Let’s get what we were promised,” Grady tells them. “Stand up for Scotland.”

“You can tell I’m English,” said Sue Cruikshank in Duncombe Street. “I voted no. I was a bit scared, a bit wary.” And she was swiftly disappointed. “They didn’t give us anything. All they’re worried about is what England’s getting.” Next week Cruikshank will vote SNP for the first time.

Labour is not in despair. The wipeout in the north next Thursday will be terrible. But the SNP thieves who are taking their seats will not, Labour believes, deliver them to Cameron. Sometime on the other side of a messy constitutional battle, there will soon be a Labour government in Westminster. Even in the wreckage of Scotland, that’s a comfort.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/01/scots-out-in-force-edinburgh-sturgeon-snp-election-labour

Edited May 1, 2015 by LJS

[LJS]

English cities don't have many tory MPs was what I was saying. The divide within England isn't Birmingham or wherever, it's urban/rural.

Save me the bother Kaos, excluding London, how many Labour vs tories are there in Essex, Sussex, Hampshire, Devon, Cornwall, Wiltshire, Berkshire, Bedfordshire. & whatever other counties I have missed from the South of England,

There are some pretty big Urban areas in these counties & precious few labour MP's

the union is over

Edited May 1, 2015 by LJS

[russycarps]

Save me the bother Kaos, excluding London, how many Labour vs tories are there in Essex, Sussex, Hampshire, Devon, Cornwall, Wiltshire, Berkshire, Bedfordshire. & whatever other counties I have missed from the South of England,

There are some pretty big Urban areas in these counties & precious few labour MP's

the union is over

Big southern cities like bristol, Brighton, Southampton you mean?

[LJS]

Big southern cities like bristol, Brighton, Southampton you mean?

Yes, & Portsmouth, Plymouth,Reading etc.

[russycarps]

So with London that's 4 non-Tory, 3 Tory.

You've really proved your point there.

[LJS]

So with London that's 4 non-Tory, 3 Tory.

You've really proved your point there.

these are red oases in a sea of blue, The South of England gives the Tories a massive head start in every election.