The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

It is now inconceivable that David Cameron can reject Scottish demands for greater home rule.

the SNP’s electoral success is undoubtedly a mandate for going far beyond the hastily conceived ragbag of new powers contained in the Smith Commission documents.

If the Westminster system fumbles that move to a federal union of equal British nations, Scotland can legitimately claim it has no recourse but to seek a second referendum.

We all know that in present UK economic circumstances a fiscally autonomous Scotland would face a significant budget deficit.

For Scotland to accept fiscal autonomy ... would be tantamount to economic suicide

He declares Scotland financially fucked.

And recognises that Scotland is heading for financially-fucked-land at it's own request.

This guy really hates SNP policy, don't you think, resident snippers?

Edited May 11, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

He declares Scotland financially fucked.

And recognises that Scotland is heading for financially-fucked-land at it's own request.

This guy really hates SNP policy, don't you think, resident snippers?

Not sure that's how I'd describe George Kerevan.

Of course you did your usual selective quoting but glad to see you are reading a good newspaper these days!

[MichaelsBeard]

Good piece here by a (former) Scottish Labour MP on why he feels Labour faired so bad up here. I fully agree. http://m.scotsman.com/news/kenny-young-no-rash-changes-for-scottish-labour-1-3768996

[eFestivals]

Not sure that's how I'd describe George Kerevan.

Of course you did your usual selective quoting but glad to see you are reading a good newspaper these days!

As ever, everything has to be deceptive, and only the SNP play it straight.

The only point of my edit was not to change any meaning, but to point out to you that even informed SNP members recognise the state of Scotland's economy and SNP policy towards that, that snippers like you will not.

The excuse the SNP are using for the delay till Armageddon-day is invalid, against the SNP's own indie argument and the progress of the Smith Commission* new powers

(* less than two years for: a commission, recommendations, draft legislation, cross party agreement, passed into law [yet to happen, I know] and implemented [May 2016 is the date, I'm pretty sure])

Oh dear.

"For Scotland to accept fiscal autonomy ... would be tantamount to economic suicide"

Which of course means the same as: "For Scotland to accept independence ... would be tantamount to economic suicide"

Unless you have a magic money tree...?

Edited May 11, 2015 by eFestivals

[MichaelsBeard]

I thought I'd put this here as it is of purely Scottish interest. As it is from behind the Herald's paywall, I have posted it in full & not linked it cos I'm on my phone & I can't be arsed.

This is the man who stood against Murphy. Definitely to the left of Jim (not difficult)

Neil Findlay, Labour MSP for Lothians, has resigned from Labour's shadow cabinet in the Scottish Parliament

In a statement he said that Thursday's election was a "disaster" for the Scottish Labour Party, with their problems "wide ranging and deep".

He said: "Radical solutions are needed and can only be implemented following a full, frank, open and democratic debate led by our loyal and hard working, committed party members - a centralised fix just won't do.

"I want to play a full part in that debate and in rebuilding our party from the grassroots up.

"I feel I can only do so if free rom the constraints of being a member of the Shadow Team. I have therefore today submitted my resignation from the Shadow Cabinet."

"I want to thank the Labour leadership team for the opportunity to serve the party and the movement I love."

He added that he would "redouble" his efforts working on behalf of the Lothian region.

I disagree with him. 'Radical solutions' aren't needed. They would have been needed if Scotland had voted in a party far to the left, but they didn't. They voted for the SNP, purely because they're Scottish. The argument 'Labour isn't left enough for us' totally falls apart when you switch your vote to SNP. Nationalism won the GE up here. Not the policies.

[viberunner]

I'm thinking the next GE will have significant Labour, LibDem & Tory representation from Scotland in Westminster.

Blairite wish-"thinking".

[eFestivals]

Blairite wish-"thinking".

You think Scotland will happily accept SNP austerity-max, when they've shouted loudly about nasty (but much smaller) English Tory austerity?

Wow.

I don't know if I'm shocked because you believe it's true, or because I believe you might actually be right.

But whatever it is, it's myth heaven up there at the moment, that much is clear.

[eFestivals]

glad to see you are reading a good newspaper these days!

just out of idol interest, I looked up what its readership is.

And I laughed when I saw how much less read it is than efests.

[Comfy Bean]

I disagree with him. 'Radical solutions' aren't needed. They would have been needed if Scotland had voted in a party far to the left, but they didn't. They voted for the SNP, purely because they're Scottish. The argument 'Labour isn't left enough for us' totally falls apart when you switch your vote to SNP. Nationalism won the GE up here. Not the policies.

In the interest of balance then MB, may I disagree with you. Labour won 1 ( one ) seat in Scotland. The 1 seat was won by a guy who would vote against Trident and is heavily involved with the revival of Hearts FC ( a sure vote winner in his seat ). If you are an SNP supporter then fair enough " radical solutions aren`t needed " and the SNP will march on unchallenged to the Scottish elections next year. Even though I voted SNP I agree with Findlay that radical solutions are needed to stop the decline we have seen over recent years from Labour. As you probably know, I think moving Murphy on would be the first step in the right direction. I saw a Labour guy on tv saying that they have no actual " rules " around this as you would just expect someone who has done so badly PLUS lost his own seat to stand down immediately. I saw Ian Davidson`s interview straight after he lost his seat in the early hours of Friday morning and I think he got it spot on.

I`m still stunned that Labour lost so badly to the Tories down south after the 5 years we have just been through and it wasn`t just the seats they lost up here it was the massive majorities that got overturned. Across the UK they should look at how badly they did in Scotland and come up with as many radical solutions as they can.......in my opinion

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/05/can-jim-murphy-hang-leader-scottish-labour-amid-calls-him-resign

Edited May 11, 2015 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

I suspect that'll see around half of the SNP's support drain away and a revival of the other parties.

It ain't all over till the fat small lady sings is screaming.

Fortunately you also suspected that Labour would win the election and spent months during the run up to the Indy vote telling us all that a no vote would leaves us safe in the hands of Ed. I`m sure some people suspected that Dave would have Ed in the " heat of battle " but they got got the PMSL - Have you seen the polls treatment.

I`m also pretty sure you suspected the other week that the SNP had peaked at the 44% and that support was starting to ease off.

Instead of the one about the fat lady singing ......... hows about the one about the broken clock

We should all be getting behind the anti tory parties surely especially while Labour sort themselves out.

[viberunner]

just out of idol interest, I looked up what its readership is.

And I laughed when I saw how much less read it is than efests.

It's "idle".

Idol interest is statue-bothering.

[MichaelsBeard]

In the interest of balance then MB, may I disagree with you. Labour won 1 ( one ) seat in Scotland. The 1 seat was won by a guy who would vote against Trident and is heavily involved with the revival of Hearts FC ( a sure vote winner in his seat ). If you are an SNP supporter then fair enough " radical solutions aren`t needed " and the SNP will march on unchallenged to the Scottish elections next year. Even though I voted SNP I agree with Findlay that radical solutions are needed to stop the decline we have seen over recent years from Labour. As you probably know, I think moving Murphy on would be the first step in the right direction. I saw a Labour guy on tv saying that they have no actual " rules " around this as you would just expect someone who has done so badly PLUS lost his own seat to stand down immediately. I saw Ian Davidson`s interview straight after he lost his seat in the early hours of Friday morning and I think he got it spot on.

I`m still stunned that Labour lost so badly to the Tories down south after the 5 years we have just been through and it wasn`t just the seats they lost up here it was the massive majorities that got overturned. Across the UK they should look at how badly they did in Scotland and come up with as many radical solutions as they can.......in my opinion

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/05/can-jim-murphy-hang-leader-scottish-labour-amid-calls-him-resign

Nah, I just feel this is a referendum backlash. Scottish Labour didn't change so drastically in policy over the last 5 years to lose 500,000 votes. If anything their manifesto was more left than it has been in years. People want a party that 'speaks for us' now and apparently that can only be achieved by voting for the SNP.

[viberunner]

Nah, I just feel this is a referendum backlash. Scottish Labour didn't change so drastically in policy over the last 5 years to lose 500,000 votes. If anything their manifesto was more left than it has been in years. People want a party that 'speaks for us' now and apparently that can only be achieved by voting for the SNP.

I think it was not a backlash against party policy so much as a backlash against the party: as being seen as a London party that only looked to Scotland when it was in their interests and the moment the need to look to Scotland is gone they promptly forget about them, couple that with the credibility gained by the SNP's campaign, rhetoric, and remarkably positive message and energy (as well as having capable and effective leaders from ordinary "small house" backgrounds).

In this campaign Ed Miliband slithered in, under cover of darkness, to an unmarked entrance round the back of unmarked building, gave a speech to rank and file membership, and escaped Scotland before anyone could ask him anything.

That is not a leader trying to win votes.

Edited May 11, 2015 by viberunner

[LJS]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32606713

This typifies all that was wrong with the Labour campaign. Following public opinion instead of leading it.

[eFestivals]

Fortunately you also suspected that Labour would win the election and spent months during the run up to the Indy vote telling us all that a no vote would leaves us safe in the hands of Ed.

When there's no snipper's myth available, make it up for yourself.

I`m sure some people suspected that Dave would have Ed in the " heat of battle " but they got got the PMSL - Have you seen the polls treatment.

That'll be LJS, who I kept pointing at polls but who said they were either outliers or I was mis-reading them.

I`m also pretty sure you suspected the other week that the SNP had peaked at the 44% and that support was starting to ease off.

Care to show me the SNP's bigger vote?

Oh, you can't .... because they got a smaller vote, *EXACTLY* as I said at least 3 times would happen.

Instead of the one about the fat lady singing ......... hows about the one about the broken clock

that'll be you making it up again.

We should all be getting behind the anti tory parties surely especially while Labour sort themselves out.

Yeah, because getting behind them can only mean supporting the SNP who couldn't get behind the anti tory parties themselves.

Demanding extra privileges for support is bribery and corruption, it's nothing better and it's certainly not getting behind the anti-tory side.

And anyway, what's anti-tory about wanting bigger cuts as the SNP do? It's in their manifesto, along with the confirmation of them having lied to you previously.

Edited May 12, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

This typifies all that was wrong with the Labour campaign. Following public opinion instead of leading it.

yeah, Labour got it wrong.

What they should have done was had policies that would lead the country to "suicide" in the mind of their own MPs.

That would make things so much better.

Perhaps the Labour party realise that there's not only sheep in the country who want to be told what to do and who'll go along with it even when it's punching themselvces in the face?

Perhaps they respected the opinions of people, rather than told them what to think because they knew they couldn't think for themselves?

There's only one explanation, tho, you're right. Labour should have realised what sheep the people are.

[gary1979666]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32606713

This typifies all that was wrong with the Labour campaign. Following public opinion instead of leading it.

And I thought Clegg wanted to give Labour a brain?!!

[viberunner]

Just to let you know Neil the use of "snipper" makes you sound like someone who says EUSSR, Zanulabour, and Lieberal Demonrat.

Basically it marks you out on the "tinfoil dreadlocks" end of the spectrum.

[eFestivals]

Just to let you know Neil the use of "snipper" makes you sound like someone who says EUSSR, Zanulabour, and Lieberal Demonrat.

Basically it marks you out on the "tinfoil dreadlocks" end of the spectrum.

I know, I know, you'd rather I used "all true Scots". Nicola keeps getting that one confused too.

It's not meant as any insult. It has the letters of the SNP within it, and they aim to snip Scotland away from the UK.

Get over it.

[LJS]

I know, I know, you'd rather I used "all true Scots". Nicola keeps getting that one confused too.

It's not meant as any insult. It has the letters of the SNP within it, and they aim to snip Scotland away from the UK.

Get over it.

Stupid fUKer!

[eFestivals]

Stupid fUKer!

you're the one who'll be happy to be a 2nd-best fUKer in a nationalist world, not me.

[LJS]

you're the one who'll be happy to be a 2nd-best fUKer in a nationalist world, not me.

And you'll be in the refugee boats crossing the Tweed , fleeing Tory oppression & seeking asylum in the socialist utopia of Scotland.

[eFestivals]

And you'll be in the refugee boats crossing the Tweed , fleeing Tory oppression & seeking asylum in the socialist utopia of Scotland.

Yeah, vote socialist for middle class privileges.

I'd forgotten that socialist slogan.

[LJS]

Yeah, vote socialist for middle class privileges.

I'd forgotten that socialist slogan.

[viberunner]

I know, I know, you'd rather I used "all true Scots". Nicola keeps getting that one confused too.

I Googled for that quote. Was not immediately able to locate Sturgeon saying it.