The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

You know when you said you were a Marxist?

You were either lying to us, lying to yourself, or combination of the two.

You're party of the English 55% and you don't even know it.

PMSL .... did I miss the bit within Das Kapital where Marx says resources can be magicked?

[eFestivals]

He's just sore because he's always said us Scots are just as right wing as the English which was a bit true. It now looks as though that might just be changing, so as he always does, he starts banging on about money.

He'll probably manage to squeeze Eck & Rupert in shortly.

You're left wing in wanting wonderful things from the sky. You're right wing in wanting others to pay for it.

Which one wins out? The one where you want rUK to give you nice things that you won't pay for yourselves.

Never mind, eh? That's the dilemma that will always stop your indie dream, and proves which of left/right you actually are.

Edited May 26, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

You're left wing in wanting wonderful things from the sky. You're right wing in wanting others to pay for it.

Which one wins out? The one where you want rUK to give you nice things that you won't pay for yourselves.

Never mind, eh? That's the dilemma that will always stop your indie dream, and proves which of left/right you actually are.

I'd you paid attention, you would know that I would happily pay more tax if it was going to be towards a fairer society as I am sure you would.

Of course, your broader point that voters don't think through the costs of their dreams is of course true.

Edited May 26, 2015 by LJS

[viberunner]

PMSL .... did I miss the bit within Das Kapital where Marx says resources can be magicked?

The SNP, in power, have some of the best social policies in the UK. Not perfect by any means, but in several socially important areas they've given voice to deed and deed to voice.

Yet your instinct is to laugh at their notions and deride them in advance of attempting to implement them. Knocking down an opposition party's plans for the better social good because they can't, in opposition, cost policies to be implemented in several years time, is a Daily Mail tactic.

I honestly think an actual year or two up here would do you the power of good, a little less cynicism a few more cèilidhs and I think you'd end up with a yellow ribbon and YES 2020 t-shirt.

[eFestivals]

I'd you paid attention, you would know that I would happily pay more tax if it was going to be towards a fairer society as I am sure you would.

Of course, your broader point that voters don't think through the costs of their dreams is of course true.

You, perhaps - the personal angle wasn't my argument. The mass of Scots was.

Everyone wants something better, but whether they're prepared to pay for that 'better' is something else entirely.

Until indie has an economic plan people will buy into, it's no more of a go-er than it was in Sept.

I've not seen anything which will change that towards indie, I've only seen things which will make people far more cautious about indie - because the SNP's tune has changed from "everything will be fine if we do it now" to "we're fucked if we do it now".

[eFestivals]

The SNP, in power, have some of the best social policies in the UK.

perhaps they do.

What they don't have is action towards those social policies, and neither do they have the money for those social policies.

And that's only going to get worse as Scotland takes on paying more of its own costs at its own choice.

In 2016 you get income tax - and less Barnet money as a consequence. Where is Sturgeon going to wield the axe of SNP austerity?

Yet your instinct is to laugh at their notions and deride them in advance of attempting to implement them. Knocking down an opposition party's plans for the better social good because they can't, in opposition, cost policies to be implemented in several years time, is a Daily Mail tactic.

a plan without means of payment is not any plan at all.

We can all dream big, but we can't shit the money to pay for it. Only the very stupid think they can.

I honestly think an actual year or two up here would do you the power of good, a little less cynicism a few more cèilidhs and I think you'd end up with a yellow ribbon and YES 2020 t-shirt.

Hmmm, my visits to Scotland have had me encounter the very worst of Scotland.

I'm very happy for Scotland to do indie if that's what Scotland wants. Get back to me when it does, when SNP dreams aren't just the hot worthless air that the majority of Scots know it is.

Edited May 26, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I see Nicola is again dis-respecting the indie ref and imagining that the majority of Scotland hadn't chosen to stick with the UK's ways of doing things.

She can bang on about wanting more autonomy, but it seems to have passed her by entirely that there's no case for Scotland having any part of foreign policy in its own hands.

Apparently, Scotland *DEMANDS* the right to chose its own destiny as long as that destiny is approved by the SNP. Democracy? Wassat then?

[viberunner]

I see Nicola is again dis-respecting the indie ref and imagining that the majority of Scotland hadn't chosen to stick with the UK's ways of doing things.

She has recognised for the first time the Scottish people have given the nationalist party a massive mandate for Westminster.

There is no evidence the Scots "want to stick with the UK's way of doing things", indeed the Devo Extra and More Powers (etc.) were the offer/bribe both Tories and Labour pledge in order to sway a NO vote.

So Devo Max is very much on the agenda.

[viberunner]

What they don't have is action towards those social policies, and neither do they have the money for those social policies. a plan without means of payment is not any plan at all. We can all dream big, but we can't shit the money to pay for it. Only the very stupid think they can.

Well, Trident can be an English-only purchase. That should free up some cash for social services in Scotland.

The Scots don't want it and the Scots don't need it... we'll take healthcare and education over nuclear weapons.

[eFestivals]

She has recognised for the first time the Scottish people have given the nationalist party a massive mandate for Westminster.

which has fuck all to do with any reason why Scotland should get special privileges in a UK matter.

There is no evidence the Scots "want to stick with the UK's way of doing things"

PMSL

indeed the Devo Extra and More Powers (etc.) were the offer/bribe both Tories and Labour pledge in order to sway a NO vote.

and the bit about foreign policy being devolved was where?

So Devo Max is very much on the agenda.

and what is always excluded from that agenda?

Edited May 26, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Well, Trident can be an English-only purchase. That should free up some cash for social services in Scotland.

that won't even cover the costs for the plasters to put on your faces after you've finished wondering why you've punched yourselves in the face.

The Scots don't want it and the Scots don't need it... we'll take healthcare and education over nuclear weapons.

Well, except you won't, of course.

It's another part of the duplicitousness, where the people of Scotland actually quite like them as long as Scotland isn't having to get its minds dirty by realising the duplicitousness.

Meanwhile, iScotland doesn't save a single penny by ditching Trident. If the SNP promises hold true (snigger) the indy dream is a bigger spending on guns and killing machines than now.

[viberunner]

For all the cynicism my friend this line of yours tells me why I want the SNP to gain us independence.

bye-bye NHS, bye-bye public services, bye-bye social welfare, bye-bye the EU, bye-bye all sense in the UK

It's a line that says it all, where England is, and where England is heading. Well, England and Wales because the Welsh have decided to start dressing to the right too.

[eFestivals]

For all the cynicism my friend this line of yours tells me why I want the SNP to gain us independence.

bye-bye NHS, bye-bye public services, bye-bye social welfare, bye-bye the EU, bye-bye all sense in the UK

It's a line that says it all, where England is, and where England is heading. Well, England and Wales because the Welsh have decided to start dressing to the right too.

And Scotland can afford more, how exactly?

It certainly can't afford what the UK can currently give Scotland, so it certainly won't manage better.

The irony is huge that tory cuts are the only hope indy actually has, because it's only after those tory cuts that an indy Scotland becomes viable without needing to cut the state to shreds.

Meanwhile, you laud a man who has advocated the very worst of tory ideas and you hail him as your savour. Your saviour from what? Morons like himself? PMSL.

[viberunner]

So you're against the Tory cuts when they affect England... but you're all "but Scotland can't afford not to have the Tory cuts" for Scotland?

Hmm.

[eFestivals]

So you're against the Tory cuts when they affect England... but you're all "but Scotland can't afford not to have the Tory cuts" for Scotland?

Hmm.

what part of GERS are you having such difficulties with?

Perhaps ask Nicola to explain it to you, including the part where she recognises that Scotland would have to make massive cuts if it tried to be financially independent?

YOU are the exact reason why indie isn't happening any time soon. Luckily for Scotland, most people resident there have better working brains.

[LJS]

what part of GERS are you having such difficulties with?

Perhaps ask Nicola to explain it to you, including the part where she recognises that Scotland would have to make massive cuts if it tried to be financially independent?

YOU are the exact reason why indie isn't happening any time soon. Luckily for Scotland, most people resident there have better working brains.

What has changed with the recent election is that in Scotland 75% of the electorate voted in favour of parties higher taxation on the wealthy.

In England over 55% voted for parties opposed to tax rises for the rich.

There is increasingly, not only a more left wing flavour to what us Scots want, but also an increased willingness to vote for measures to pay for these policies.

[eFestivals]

What has changed with the recent election is that in Scotland 75% of the electorate voted in favour of parties higher taxation on the wealthy.

In England over 55% voted for parties opposed to tax rises for the rich.

There is increasingly, not only a more left wing flavour to what us Scots want, but also an increased willingness to vote for measures to pay for these policies.

with such a clear "let's pay more taxes" majority it seems rather odd that your leading party doesn't have a policy of "let's pay more taxes", doesn't it?

Perhaps that disconnect is where your take on things is going to fall down?

Have you actually stopped and considered what sort of tax raises would be needed to maintain the current level of services in Scotland?

And have you actually stopped and considered what would happen to the SNP vote share if it proposed the necessary tax rises?

Scotland wouldn't even cough up 1% extra in income taxes when Salmond suggested it - and it'll be waaaay more than just 1% needed to maintain the current level of services.

Edited May 27, 2015 by eFestivals

[russycarps]

What has changed with the recent election is that in Scotland 75% of the electorate voted in favour of parties higher taxation on the wealthy.

In England over 55% voted for parties opposed to tax rises for the rich.

There is increasingly, not only a more left wing flavour to what us Scots want, but also an increased willingness to vote for measures to pay for these policies.

there's no appetite for tax rises for the masses though is there.

it's easy to want the rich to pay for everything. It's what scotland as a region has been used to for decades, so it stands to reason scots as individuals would feel the same way.

when it actually comes to the crunch though, and the option to take responsibility for your own actions is offered, scots dont actually want it. When they realise their desired lifestyle will actually cost them more, they meekly tick the "no" box.

Back to leeching off others, and complaining about it. Business as usual.

[kipper64]

What a load of nonsense.

Just because a slim majority wanted to remain within the UK, the appetite for devolution (which is taking further responsibility) is supported by the masses. This issue though, is not the same as people's opinion to taxation.

I imagine a majority don't really want to pay more tax personally, but if their standard of life was improving as a result, they'd probably be more accepting.

Either way the argument seems to come down to how you view politics. If you think everything should be within current means, costed and not imaginative, then fair enough - however real social progress has never been made by governments with no vision other than we will slightly improve things maybe, as long as the money is there. We didn't get the NHS from a government who sat back and said after the war "we'll see what we can do but there's not a lot of money going around so you know..."

In regards to Scotland being more left wing, I don't think it has anything to do with taxes either or who would pay for it. I think it's just a reflection of public opinion. Relating to my earlier point, the SNP in Scotland ran on an anti-austerity message and an anti-tory message, that clearly captured the masses, so I think off the back of that Anti-Tory message the mood is more to the left. In England the mood isn't necessarily more right wing, but probably more muddled due to a lack of a more left wing party or left wing message managing to engage the electorate, as Labour clearly didn't manage it this time around, and no other party has really stepped up to the plate, and a lot of those in the working class north have defected to UKIP as a result of the lefts failings there, so causing that shift as a result. Hopefully that will change though in the next five years so we can get rid of the Tories though!

[LJS]

with such a clear "let's pay more taxes" majority it seems rather odd that your leading party doesn't have a policy of "let's pay more taxes", doesn't it?

Perhaps that disconnect is where your take on things is going to fall down?

Have you actually stopped and considered what sort of tax raises would be needed to maintain the current level of services in Scotland?

And have you actually stopped and considered what would happen to the SNP vote share if it proposed the necessary tax rises?

Scotland wouldn't even cough up 1% extra in income taxes when Salmond suggested it - and it'll be waaaay more than just 1% needed to maintain the current level of services.

Salmond didn't suggest it. He wasn't leader . John swinney Was.

Astonishingly not everything is Alec's fault.

[eFestivals]

it's easy to want the rich to pay for everything.

when snippers start to advocate the end of the Barnett formula will the chances of indy stop being a dream and start to move into reality.

And, as I've said, the best chances for that are actually via the tory's cuts - as Nicola well knows - which stands a chance to bring Scottish public spending within what Scotland can afford.

Cos the one thing that's never going to happen via a willing choice (tho don't rule out an unwilling choice in the case of a crisis!) is for Scotland to be happily paying higher taxes than rUK. People in Scotland will look at rUK and say "if they can pay less then so can we" - as proven by the total reluctance of the SNP to advocate the realities of what would be needed for indy.

Currently, Nicola side-steps reality with "reality isn't relevant", because the reality isn't yet coming. As soon as its on the horizon things will change hugely.

It's going to be interesting to see Scotland scream at the Barnet amendments that will come with the SNP's demand that Smith is implemented in full.

It'll of course be played as "nasty cuts by the English Westminster", but the sleeping brains of Scotland are slowly waking - you can see it startring to happen within expressed Scottish opinions.

(snippers probably don't hear these things, because Scots are learning the rules of the new one party state)

[eFestivals]

Salmond didn't suggest it. He wasn't leader . John swinney Was.

Astonishingly not everything is Alec's fault.

wasn't Swinney the guy who dropped Salmond's "penny for Scotland"?

This article certainly suggests it was that way round (can't be bothered to google more).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1369860/SNP-drops-Penny-for-Scotland-tax.html

[eFestivals]

I imagine a majority don't really want to pay more tax personally, but if their standard of life was improving as a result, they'd probably be more accepting.

that falls down because they won't be paying more for better services, they'll be paying MUCH more for the same services.

Either way the argument seems to come down to how you view politics. If you think everything should be within current means, costed and not imaginative, then fair enough - however real social progress has never been made by governments with no vision other than we will slightly improve things maybe, as long as the money is there. We didn't get the NHS from a government who sat back and said after the war "we'll see what we can do but there's not a lot of money going around so you know..."

but Scotland wouldn't be having tax rises for social progress, they'd be having tax rises for no progress - and quite possibly to go backwards if they bottle out of the rises that would be necessary to stand still

In regards to Scotland being more left wing, I don't think it has anything to do with taxes either or who would pay for it. I think it's just a reflection of public opinion.

PMSL:.

Do you think England *WANTS* shitter health services in all circumstances?

Or might it be that England wants better health services but feels it's already paying enough for health services?

The two things (taxes, and services) cannot be separated. They are part of the same thing.

The only reason Scotland appears to be more left wing is because they're only thinking of one side of the situation.

Relating to my earlier point, the SNP in Scotland ran on an anti-austerity message and an anti-tory message, that clearly captured the masses,

well, it certainly appealed to the masses, but only because the masses weren't listening properly.

The SNP only "ran on an anti-austerity message" if you didn't pay attention.

The promise of worse-than-tory-austerity was in their manifesto, which Sturgeon ducked (and the Scottish electorate let her) by saying SNP policies "weren't relevant". How fucking thick are some people?

In England the mood isn't necessarily more right wing, but probably more muddled due to a lack of a more left wing party or left wing message managing to engage the electorate, as Labour clearly didn't manage it this time around, and no other party has really stepped up to the plate, and a lot of those in the working class north have defected to UKIP as a result of the lefts failings there, so causing that shift as a result. Hopefully that will change though in the next five years so we can get rid of the Tories though!

I do love it when Scots tell the English that we don't understand what's happening in Scotland, while the same Scots tell us what is happening in England.

It's the same false narrative which said "Scotland cannot cause a tory govt". YOU JUST DID!!!!

(or do you think Scotland already operates in the vacuum of sense that will be a poorer indy Scotland?)

How England voted is fuck all to do with anything except knowing that the bills HAVE TO BE paid.

For all the while the SNP talk about screwing more money out of England while their nutty supporters believe Scotland is able to self-finance at the current spending levels, you'll be getting the tories.

Funnily enough, voters in England aren't the mugs the brain-dead* snippers take them for.,

(* that's not saying all snippers are brain dead - but this thread proves that some are).

Edited May 27, 2015 by eFestivals

[kipper64]

that falls down because they won't be paying more for better services, they'll be paying MUCH more for the same services.

The point has nothing to do with an independent or fiscally autonomous Scotland, I was talking about Tax in general within the UK or wider world. The study posted was public mood in Scotland on issues, and was nothing to do with opinions if we were independent so I don't see why it has to be treated as such?

PMSL:.

Do you think England *WANTS* shitter health services in all circumstances?

Or might it be that England wants better health services but feels it's already paying enough for health services?

The two things (taxes, and services) cannot be separated. They are part of the same thing.

The only reason Scotland appears to be more left wing is because they're only thinking of one side of the situation.

Of course not, and again that wasn't my point. My point was the current public mood in England is more to the right due to a lack of a left leaning message engaging the electorate there. The only parties that managed to engage on a bigger scale had a right leaning message. (See UKIP)

well, it certainly appealed to the masses, but only because the masses weren't listening properly.

The SNP only "ran on an anti-austerity message" if you didn't pay attention.

The promise of worse-than-tory-austerity was in their manifesto, which Sturgeon ducked (and the Scottish electorate let her) by saying SNP policies "weren't relevant". How fucking thick are some people?

Look, I don't vote SNP, so I'm not going to sit here and discuss how true the anti-austerity message was. However it was the message they ran with and people by and large found it believable. Was it true? Probably not, but the message was a left leaning one and they managed to engage the electorate with that message, and with an anti Tory message, and managed to bring the debate about trident into the limelight, which has caused the public mood to perhaps either stay or sway to the left (depending where it was previously I guess).

I do love it when Scots tell the English that we don't understand what's happening in Scotland, while the same Scots tell us what is happening in England.

It's the same false narrative which said "Scotland cannot cause a tory govt". YOU JUST DID!!!!

(or do you think Scotland already operates in the vacuum of sense that will be a poorer indy Scotland?)

How England voted is fuck all to do with anything except knowing that the bills HAVE TO BE paid.

For all the while the SNP talk about screwing more money out of England while their nutty supporters believe Scotland is able to self-finance at the current spending levels, you'll be getting the tories.

Funnily enough, voters in England aren't the mugs the brain-dead* snippers take them for.,

(* that's not saying all snippers are brain dead - but this thread proves that some are).

Completely misunderstood my point. This is not me telling England what England thinks, just offering my two cents as to why the figures are how they are and actually what I was saying was I don't think England is more right wing. I just think that no left wing party, or left wing message managed to engage the electorate in England this time around (the results show this), especially with Labour losing votes in it's heartlands to UKIP.

There's two possible reasons why England is seemingly "more to the right" currently. Either the message from the left wasn't good enough to engage people in England, or convincing enough which is failure of the parties and the message as a whole, or the people just are more inclined to the right. I think it's the former, and I'd have thought most would agree with that.

In regards to Scotland, I don't think Scotland is more left wing, or a more left wing society, or the people here are inbuilt with some sort of socialist gene. I think the reason the mood has remained "to the left" by and large is because of the failure of the right wing parties to make any sort of convincing argument for the Scottish electorate to vote for. If there was a more effective right wing party up here, then I'm sure the public mood might be more to right than it currently is.

These are the reasons as to why I don't think it has anything to do with taxes. It's to do with the messages being sent out as a whole to the electorate, and the effectiveness of those messages that shapes public mood on issues. Taxes come into the reality of government, but when it comes to mood and opinion, it's shaped by the arguments.

[LJS]

when snippers start to advocate the end of the Barnett formula will the chances of indy stop being a dream and start to move into reality.

And, as I've said, the best chances for that are actually via the tory's cuts - as Nicola well knows - which stands a chance to bring Scottish public spending within what Scotland can afford.

Cos the one thing that's never going to happen via a willing choice (tho don't rule out an unwilling choice in the case of a crisis!) is for Scotland to be happily paying higher taxes than rUK. People in Scotland will look at rUK and say "if they can pay less then so can we" - as proven by the total reluctance of the SNP to advocate the realities of what would be needed for indy.

Currently, Nicola side-steps reality with "reality isn't relevant", because the reality isn't yet coming. As soon as its on the horizon things will change hugely.

It's going to be interesting to see Scotland scream at the Barnet amendments that will come with the SNP's demand that Smith is implemented in full.

It'll of course be played as "nasty cuts by the English Westminster", but the sleeping brains of Scotland are slowly waking - you can see it startring to happen within expressed Scottish opinions.

(snippers probably don't hear these things, because Scots are learning the rules of the new one party state)

As you well know, when the SNP ran on their "penny for Scotland " ticket, they were limited to varying the basic rate of income tax. Running on a promise to increase this has become pretty much a taboo throughout the UK since Thatcher conned everyone into thinking that because the base rate of income tax was low, they were actually paying less in tax! If memory serves me right, I think the libdems ran once some years ago on a pledge to raise income tax to fund the NHS. They were equally unsuccessful. Whether these two isolated examples demonstrate it can't be done, I'm not so sure.

There will be many reasons why these parties did not win & it is simplistic & convenient to say it was because they wanted to raise income tax. A recent YouGov poll which was mainly about Europe tacked on a question at the end about raising the basic rate of income tax by 1p to fund the NHS and found about 2/3 in favour (excluding don't knows) throughout the UK - about 35 higher in Scotland. Now of course, we know people are a lot more selfish in the ballot box than they are answering surveys but is might just suggest that it is not such a crazy notion after all.

(https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/2g0umt985b/SundayTimesResults_150522_Website.pdf)

In addition Scotland will soon have the ability to vary more than the basic rate of income tax & I will be watching with interest what the various parties propose to do with this power.

You, as usual reduce everything to money. The point I was making is that public opinion in Scotland appears to have moved to the left in Scotland whilst it has moved to the right in England. Whether Left wing policies are affordable is a separate argument and of course not everything "left wing" costs money. Here, as so often you swallow the right's smears:"crazy tax & spend socialists."

I think Kipper makes some great points around why this might be the case in terms of Scots not being "inherently" more left wing than the English. I spent some time arguing in the GE thread that it was a long time since anyone has campaigned with passion & conviction on a left wing ticket in England.

So I hope you'll excuse me not getting sucked into your black hole again, Neil - its not what we I'm talking about right now.

p.s. Has Salmond not been arrested in the FIFA corruption scandal yet? I can't believe he wasn't involved.

Edited May 27, 2015 by LJS