The Dirty Independence Question

[russycarps]

Gotta love the torygraph, succinctly crushes the raving nationalists dreams

"there won't be another [referendum] for at least 15 years, by which time the North Sea Oil will have run out and the Scottish population will be considerably greyer."

[viberunner]

I know it's nearer 50% than 49%, but it's still less than 50%.

49.97% ISN'T ARF.

THAT'S LADYBOY THINKING THAT IS.

(OR ROUNDING TO ONE DECIMAL PLACE)

[russycarps]

it is less than half though...

I'm guessing you don't work with figures. I hope not anyway!

[kaosmark2]

"Scotland is united in wanting independence and support for the SNP. Nearly HALF voted for the SNP!"

[eFestivals]

So anyway .... Chicken Dave's plans for Scotland.....

I know the SNP are outraged - at every opportunity - at the EVEL thing, and they've got a more than fair point if it's not done via a vote as has been suggested, but ... maybe they've jumped the gun?

I've not chased it down to find further mention of it, but amongst what I read about the Queen's speech and comment around it included something about "a new funding formula to replace the Barnet formula".

I think there's probably something Scotland should fear in those words, tho you voted for it!

Regarding EVEL, if there's something Dave could come up with (tho i've no idea what) which detaches any funding for the likes of Scotland from what England is doing then the complaints about EVEL should really go away*.
(*tho no doubt the SNP will find something else to complain about just as loudly).

I know Scotland thinks that England has to copy its governmental set-up, but that's England's choice to make and I don't detect any desire for another layer of politicians apart from those who are hoping to have their hands in the less-scrutinised new tills. EVEL works for me as a fix around the West Lothian question in regard to the rampant nationalism that's kicking off (and will still have England kicking Scotland in the teeth just as much, if it ever did. We're just too-big a neighbour for us not to impact).

As for the vow? Despite the tens of thousands of times I've heard it called a lie, a con, nothing happening, and all the rest, it's looking like it's going to be delivered in full and to timescale (as it always looked like it would).

Nicola's come out with her normal "we demand more" (she's starting to sound like cross between Ian Paisley and Mr Bumble ) and yet she didn't even ask for the oil money in the Smith Commission. It's almost like she wants people in Scotland to be whipped up around a contrived grievance.

[viberunner]

it is less than half though...

I'm guessing you don't work with figures. I hope not anyway!

Actually in mathematics there is indeed a concept of "to the nearest decimal place", especially for presentation purposes, and in that case this figure is 50%

We'd keep deep precision for the likes of rocket stress loads, fractal recursion, or 3D BSP rendering engines, but they really don't seem to apply.

In mathematics it's just a convenient name for the irreducible fraction resulting from dividing one by two.

But in conversational terms half is from Old English, with cognates of Mercian halb, West Saxon healf, Old Saxon halba, Old Norse halfr, Old Frisian half, Gothic halbs. The meaning?

"Side, part," not necessarily of equal division. Original sense preserved in behalf, be healfe "by (his) side," and on (his) healfe "on (his) side," from healfe "side".

The sense of precision appears to come from timekeeping ("half past ten" is attested as of 1750) but then one should observe it's highly unlikely the second hand was exactly on the hour or for that matter that the clock was perfectly correct either.

[Stash]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland#2015

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2015_(Scotland)

Both the Wiki articles give the SNP win at 50% of the electorate.

If we going to be precise about this, they actually received a vote from 35.519236179490800% of the electorate of the Scottish region or 3.133181947347170% of the UK electorate.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Stash

[LJS]

Neil Today

EVEL works for me as a fix around the West Lothian question in regard to the rampant nationalism that's kicking off

Neil a week ago

eh? Where have I said I support EVEL?

I don't. I merely pointed out the flaws in the SNP's anti-EVEL argument,

[Comfy Bean]

no, it's 49.x%

You want to portray the SNP as having the support of half of Scotland when they don't.

I'm merely highlighting your attempt at mis-representation of the facts by using the number which makes clear it's not half.

You're still not there. Get over it.

Neil I agree with you. The SNP " only " got 49.something% of the votes cast. I`m sure you will also agree that more than 50% of Scots who voted backed pro-independence parties. The numbers just keep on rising. It`s only a matter of time before we are cheering the end of Tory rule

49.something is also more than the 44% that some were predicting. I think we need to look at the seats as well when trying to get a feel for whats happening in Scotland. Up from 6 to 56 - Wow .

[Comfy Bean]

You're trying to falsely claim half of Scotland support the SNP, which is why you object so strongly to the 49% that people like me use to wind up people like you.

By " people like me " who do you mean ? Russy

Russy doesn`t wind me up, I think it`s cute that he he backs you up. Long may it continue

Even Russy knows that 1 Tory MP returned from up here is something we can all be proud of, that`s 1 ( one ). 1 too many of course but it`s better than " our " other " Regions ".

[Comfy Bean]

"Scotland is united in wanting independence and support for the SNP. Nearly HALF voted for the SNP!"

Mark we now know that more than half voted for pro-indy parties. Compare this to where we were 10 years ago then fast forward 5/10 years. The Union is dead. Scotland don`t want to be ruled by Tories. I respect the English folks right to vote for them. England are by far the biggest Country in our Union. No offence is meant. It`s time to go our separate ways.

[Comfy Bean]

Yep, from rounding it up.

I know it's nearer 50% than 49%, but it's still less than 50%.

You're trying to falsely claim half of Scotland support the SNP, which is why you object so strongly to the 49% that people like me use to wind up people like you.

I think there's probably something Scotland should fear in those words, tho you voted for it!

Who ? The whole of Scotland now or the 49plus% ?

I`m confused.

[Comfy Bean]

As for the vow? Despite the tens of thousands of times I've heard it called a lie, a con, nothing happening, and all the rest, it's looking like it's going to be delivered in full and to timescale (as it always looked like it would).

Nicola's come out with her normal "we demand more" (she's starting to sound like cross between Ian Paisley and Mr Bumble ) and yet she didn't even ask for the oil money in the Smith Commission. It's almost like she wants people in Scotland to be whipped up around a contrived grievance.

" tens of thousands of times I`ve heard it called a lie ". In reality, I think we all agreed that the vow was written in such a way ( by politicians ) that it meant very little could be argued with. In fact, I recall we all agreed that the Smith Commision had pretty much followed through on what was ( almost ) promised. Not sure it was what Brown spoke about but that is different from the " vow ".

I do think one person is trying to whip up a contrived grievance.....it`s you mate

[Comfy Bean]

Do I really think Salmond didn't want to win? I'm not sure. I'm not absolutely convinced he wanted to win.

I`m not absolutely convinced your serious. I had a longer reply typed but are you really serious here ?

If you don`t mind Neil, can I ask if this is a joke or if this your view looking back. Interested to discuss but if you don`t mind, wanted to be clear

[Comfy Bean]

Gotta love the torygraph, succinctly crushes the raving nationalists dreams

"there won't be another [referendum] for at least 15 years, by which time the North Sea Oil will have run out and the Scottish population will be considerably greyer."

We are ready to move away from Tory rule. Think about why your beloved Telegraph and others want to mock the Scottish voters ( not all of them of course ). 56 seats is scaring the shit out of them. They see a country where Labour and SNP battle for the vote by turning left left left.

The SNP are already pushing the living wage and the new powers will allow them to increase the minimum wage. The Tories are shitting themselves about the progressive nature of politics up here. Imagine when we start kicking off about scrapping the Nukes

[russycarps]

Rather than shitting themselves I suspect the tories are roaring with laughter at the goings on north of the border.

They masterminded a crushing victory over the nationalists and have seen scottish labour routed, and are now handing the snp a rope to hang themselves with.

Unfortunately this is a golden time for the vile tory pigs. And when cameron comes back from europe like the conquering hero with his tiny scraps of reform things will get even better for them

Edited May 28, 2015 by russycarps

[Comfy Bean]

Not sure I agree mate. Hardly a crushing victory when you look at where we were 10 years ago. Even 2 days from the vote your man Neil couldn't call it. You right though that labour are fucked up here but without the desire to appeal to middle England they can win again in an indy Scotland in the future. Loads of people have and are changing their mind on Scotland being capable of running their own affairs. I predict that even you will step away from the Westminster champions and stand with us on a different more progressive path :-)

England voted tory Scotland didn't. I know where your heart lies :-)

[kaosmark2]

Mark we now know that more than half voted for pro-indy parties. Compare this to where we were 10 years ago then fast forward 5/10 years. The Union is dead. Scotland don`t want to be ruled by Tories. I respect the English folks right to vote for them. England are by far the biggest Country in our Union. No offence is meant. It`s time to go our separate ways.

I do not consider myself English. I consider myself British.

You say no offence meant, but you are grouping me with all the idiotic racists in the country. I have no desire to be considered more akin to some Tory c**t in Kent than someone in Edinburgh. I also know that I'd prefer to live in Edinburgh to Kent.

Stop highlighting differences. You're just following the bait of divide and rule. I'd much prefer to find common ground, and work together for electoral reform.

Also, Scotland has barely shifted away from the Tories at all. Their vote share is still 15%. It's a rejection of Labour.

[kaosmark2]

Not sure I agree mate. Hardly a crushing victory when you look at where we were 10 years ago. Even 2 days from the vote your man Neil couldn't call it. You right though that labour are fucked up here but without the desire to appeal to middle England they can win again in an indy Scotland in the future. Loads of people have and are changing their mind on Scotland being capable of running their own affairs. I predict that even you will step away from the Westminster champions and stand with us on a different more progressive path :-)

England voted tory Scotland didn't. I know where your heart lies :-)

I don't believe for a minute that the SNP will lead Scotland on a more progressive path that is a vibrant shining Utopia that will enlighten the rest of the world.

Where the fuck this idea came from I have no clue.

Distrusting the SNP isn't the same thing as championing Westminster either.

[eFestivals]

Neil Today

Neil a week ago

Context is everything. No wonder you have such difficulty with facts.

The whole devolution thing is proving itself an arse - even those who wanted it hate it (including you, who wants out of it) - but it's what we've got.

There's an issue of non-English MPs being able to vote on English matters, which is feckin' stupid. I understand why they feel it's right to vote on those things with the current set-up, but if the funding aspects are removed then there becomes no reason why those non-English MPs need to have a vote on English matters.

EVEL is a simple and easy fix to that issue (in the right circumstances). Nothing further needs to be done around that issue.

Everything about English governance is for England to decide. Not Scotland. It's the path that YOU have wanted.

While there's plenty of good reasons for more sweeping reforms for both the UK and for English 'devolution', nothing of those is required to address what gets referred to as the West Lothian question, which is what EVEL does (in the right circumstances) address.

Was that a bit difficult for you? Then no wonder you can't understand the concepts-in-fact around Scottish indy.

[eFestivals]

Neil I agree with you. The SNP " only " got 49.something% of the votes cast. I`m sure you will also agree that more than 50% of Scots who voted backed pro-independence parties.

Nope, no one voted for pro-indie parties.

What did you miss of Sturgeon's words during the election? The vote was nothing to do with indie. Or was she lying...?

I'm amused that I spent the pre-election telling you it was all an indie-smokescreen, and the likes of you insisted it wasn't. You're now calling your own self a liar.

The numbers just keep on rising. It`s only a matter of time before we are cheering the end of Tory rule

49.something is also more than the 44% that some were predicting. I think we need to look at the seats as well when trying to get a feel for whats happening in Scotland. Up from 6 to 56 - Wow .

Then perhaps use that "matter of time" to come up with a workable plan, a currency, truth about the EU position (why won't Alex and Nicola ask them? what are they scared of? ), and getting your heads around the poorer lifestyle you'll be having?

Only when Scotland has done all of that will indie stand a chance of winning.

[eFestivals]

By " people like me " who do you mean ? Russy

Russy doesn`t wind me up, I think it`s cute that he he backs you up. Long may it continue

Even Russy knows that 1 Tory MP returned from up here is something we can all be proud of, that`s 1 ( one ). 1 too many of course but it`s better than " our " other " Regions ".

The fact you, LJS and viberunner have each needed to respond to me saying 49% proves I'm spot on about how and why it ruffles your feathers.

Oh dear.

[eFestivals]

Who ? The whole of Scotland now or the 49plus% ?

I`m confused.

You, personally.

YOU voted in support of cutting UK financial support to Scotland. It was in the SNP's manifesto.

When it happens and your lifestyle suffers as a result, you only have you to blame.

[eFestivals]

" tens of thousands of times I`ve heard it called a lie ".

seriously, that's no exaggeration. I've been reading it 50+ times every day for 9+ months (50 a day would equate to 13,500).

Perhaps if you took a *real* interest instead of mindlessly following the snippers script you'd have seen it too.

Edited May 29, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

I`m not absolutely convinced your serious. I had a longer reply typed but are you really serious here ?

If you don`t mind Neil, can I ask if this is a joke or if this your view looking back. Interested to discuss but if you don`t mind, wanted to be clear

Yes, I'm serious.

It's something I said here and discussed (with LJS, if not you) before Scotland voted against indie.

I'm not 100% convinced Salmond wanted to lose, but neither am I 100% convinced he wanted to win. I think the way support grew probably had him in a dilemma over it.

At the point he was thinking about having the indyref, he'll have been thinking that it couldn't possibly be won (as was just about everyone else), and so his approach would have been to spin things in a way that would try and have support for indie stronger afterwards (and that part he's certainly succeeded with).

The plan was a laughable crock of shite, full of lies and false offers. Why would he put out a joke if he thought he'd actually have to do it?

The idea behind the indyref wasn't to get indy, it was drive the wedge in further to try and gain more support for indie.

Edited May 29, 2015 by eFestivals