The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

We are ready to move away from Tory rule. Think about why your beloved Telegraph and others want to mock the Scottish voters ( not all of them of course ). 56 seats is scaring the shit out of them. They see a country where Labour and SNP battle for the vote by turning left left left.

The SNP are already pushing the living wage and the new powers will allow them to increase the minimum wage. The Tories are shitting themselves about the progressive nature of politics up here. Imagine when we start kicking off about scrapping the Nukes

just out of interest, what effect do you think higher minimum wage to England will have on the Scottish economy, where 80% of Scottish exports go to rUK?

Might some of those businesses up-sticks and head south to the land of their customers where costs are lower?

What effect will that have on Scottish GDP? Will it increase it and so make indy more (at current living standards) viable? Or will it reduce it and take indy further away?

Might such a policy work for or against Nicola's stated claim of being able to have the fastest growing mature economy in the world (so that indy can happen with current living standards) if only she was given the powers to achieve it?

And so you see, what you hail as a good thing is a bad thing towards indy, and won't be something that really happens.

Nicola will say - in proper do-nothing-nationalist tradition - "we'd love to do it, but with the powers we currently have it will be a disaster. We need more powers".

Just you wait and see.

[eFestivals]

Even 2 days from the vote your man Neil couldn't call it.

I see you're still in fantasy land.

Lies are truth in the world of the SNP.

[gary1979666]

Mark we now know that more than half voted for pro-indy parties. Compare this to where we were 10 years ago then fast forward 5/10 years. The Union is dead. Scotland don`t want to be ruled by Tories. I respect the English folks right to vote for them. England are by far the biggest Country in our Union. No offence is meant. It`s time to go our separate ways.

It's a bit of an extrapolation there comfy. They've increase in the last 10 years, so it'll continue for the next ten. Have you been speaking to your fellow Scot Gordon with his end of boom and bust!

It might well continue to increase. But it might equally fizzle out again. Neither of us know, and it's not a trend that is really predictable, like say, the price of a mars bar trending upwards. It's a fair guess you'll do well in Holyrood next year, but any further is a bit of a punt.

Who know what could happen - Tories might rescue the economy and by 2020 they're seen as saviours and their stock rises, SNP might get FFA and the shit hits the fan, we might vote out of the EU and SNP surges.

[viberunner]

Neil I agree with you. The SNP " only " got 49.something% of the votes cast

Neil was wrong though. The SNP did not got get 49.x (one decimal place rounded to 50.0). They got 49.xx

[viberunner]

The fact you, LJS and viberunner have each needed to respond to me saying 49% proves I'm spot on about how and why it ruffles your feathers.

Being mathematically trained it rankles slightly I'll admit.

To the nearest whole number it rounds to 50

To one decimal place it rounds to 50.0

It's only two or more decimal places it goes to 49.xx but I can't see you've demanded precision to two decimal places in other posts, and indeed you were mistaken on your one decimal place attempts.

[eFestivals]

Being mathematically trained it rankles slightly I'll admit.

To the nearest whole number it rounds to 50

To one decimal place it rounds to 50.0

It's only two or more decimal places it goes to 49.xx but I can't see you've demanded precision to two decimal places in other posts, and indeed you were mistaken on your one decimal place attempts.

but, from the other side, I'm sure you can understand that non-snippers in Scotland are pissed off (I've seen more than enough of them say it) at being mis-represented via the idea that half of Scots voted for the SNP when that's not the true fact.

Mind you, they don't object half as much about that as the likes of you do at having your own lie pointed out to you.

Edited May 29, 2015 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

i've gambled on that with my own prediction - tho I'm far from confident in it.

I've also gambled on plenty of yes-ers losing faith at the moment they mark their cross. There's data from polls that suggests this is likely (tho I'm far from certain it'll happen), plus i've seen quite a few onliners in the last 48 hours who have posted "I was yes but i'm going to vote no".

If the polls hold true and it's a no vote, I reckon the margin will be greater than the polls have suggested. But I still won't be surprised if it's yes.

Not sure I agree mate. Hardly a crushing victory when you look at where we were 10 years ago. Even 2 days from the vote your man Neil couldn't call it.

I see you're still in fantasy land.

Lies are truth in the world of the SNP.

[russycarps]

Being mathematically trained

49.whatever is less than half. How many decimal places you want to use makes no difference whatsoever to that fact.

[eFestivals]

Not sure I agree mate. Hardly a crushing victory when you look at where we were 10 years ago. Even 2 days from the vote your man Neil couldn't call it. You right though that labour are fucked up here but without the desire to appeal to middle England they can win again in an indy Scotland in the future. Loads of people have and are changing their mind on Scotland being capable of running their own affairs. I predict that even you will step away from the Westminster champions and stand with us on a different more progressive path :-)

England voted tory Scotland didn't. I know where your heart lies :-)

Where the heart lies isn't necessarily the right path. You should use the head and intelligence to make important decisions, and not be led by your dick.

> Loads of people have and are changing their mind on Scotland being capable of running their own affairs.

This makes me laugh, every time. I've read possibly millions of comments around indy, and never once have I seen anyone claim that Scotland couldn't run their own affairs - except from people like you, like this.

What people like you are unable to discern is the difference between being able to run your own affairs, and being able to run your own affairs at the current levels.

Meanwhile, if you want to claim the SNP's vote in the GE as support for indie, you'll have to face up to the support for indie having already fallen - because the numbers don't lie.

[Comfy Bean]

Neil was wrong though. The SNP did not got get 49.x (one decimal place rounded to 50.0). They got 49.xx

Ah I see. Point taken - thanks

[eFestivals]

just because I wouldn't have been surprised if it was a yes doesn't get to mean that I wasn't expecting a no.

When understanding is so poor the ability for the SNP to scoop up votes remains massively huge - but that's nothing to be proud of.

[gary1979666]

Hmmm, this is getting incredibly petty. We're talking less that 800 votes to take them over the half way mark.

Let them claim half, it really doesn't matter. It make typing a lot easier and if this percentage is so anally debated, then do all figures quoted on here need to be to 4dp?!

It's far less of a mathematical stretch than people who give 110%, who should, quite frankly, lose a finger each time they say it.

[eFestivals]

Hmmm, this is getting incredibly petty. We're talking less that 800 votes to take them over the half way mark.

Let them claim half, it really doesn't matter. It make typing a lot easier and if this percentage is so anally debated, then do all figures quoted on here need to be to 4dp?!

It's far less of a mathematical stretch than people who give 110%, who should, quite frankly, lose a finger each time they say it.

You're right, it doesn't really matter - except to snippers, who DEMAND the right to claim it's half when it's not.

(you can be very sure that if/when it gets to one vote over half, they'll be claiming "more than half" so "less than half" should apply now).

They never do less than DEMAND, just like their fellow nationalist Ian Paisley.

Edited May 29, 2015 by eFestivals

[viberunner]

but, from the other side, I'm sure you can understand that non-snippers in Scotland are pissed off (I've seen more than enough of them say it)

Whilst I'm sure they're glad to have you speak for them do you have some examples?

49.whatever is less than half.

The only number you've given is 49. It's not. It's 50. To one decimal place it's 50.0, it's only at two decimal places it's 49.97.

More than that people understand a half has limitations in deep fractions.

When you buy a half an ounce of weed what do you get? 14 grams? As in exactly 14.00000000000000000000000 grams?

But an ounce is 28.3495231 (or more digits). Have you ever heard of anyone selling a half as exactly 14.17476155 grams? AND WHERE DID THEY GET THOSE SCALES?

Or half a pint of beer? Technically that's an extremely precise amount. One I doubt most pubs would manage. Hell, even if they filled to the brim and avoided all head surface tension alone might might push it over half a pint.

Or when you "halve a pizza". How would one know? A physics-department grade set of scales or just count the molecules?

See... and for the most part... outside of this forum most people aren't Mr "twat" Logic.

[russycarps]

Whilst I'm sure they're glad to have you speak for them do you have some examples?

The only number you've given is 49. It's not. It's 50. To one decimal place it's 50.0, it's only at two decimal places it's 49.97.

More than that people understand a half has limitations in deep fractions.

When you buy a half an ounce of weed what do you get? 14 grams? As in exactly 14.00000000000000000000000 grams?

But an ounce is 28.3495231 (or more digits). Have you ever heard of anyone selling a half as exactly 14.17476155 grams? AND WHERE DID THEY GET THOSE SCALES?

Or half a pint of beer? Technically that's an extremely precise amount. One I doubt most pubs would manage. Hell, even if they filled to the brim and avoided all head surface tension alone might might push it over half a pint.

Or when you "halve a pizza". How would one know? A physics-department grade set of scales or just count the molecules?

See... and for the most part... outside of this forum most people aren't Mr "twat" Logic.

less than half voted for the snp mate. Sorry, but that's the fact.

[viberunner]

less than half voted for the snp mate. Sorry, but that's the fact.

To the nearest whole number it was exactly half mate.

[russycarps]

To the nearest whole number it was exactly half mate.

In terms of actual numbers of people, less than half of them voted for the snp chum....

[viberunner]

In the words of Sam "Ace" Rothstein from CASINO... maybe fifde/fifde.

[LJS]

You're right, it doesn't really matter - except to snippers, who DEMAND the right to claim it's half when it's not.

(you can be very sure that if/when it gets to one vote over half, they'll be claiming "more than half" so "less than half" should apply now).

They never do less than DEMAND, just like their fellow nationalist Ian Paisley.

"He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword" You constantly call people out for inaccuracy, misrepresentation, distorting figures etc etc. , so you really have precisely 0.00% right to complain when you are called out for doing exactly the same thing. You consistently report the SNP vote as 49%. Now you could report it accurately as 49.97% (I'm going from memory here so I may be wrong by a few hundredths of a %) But you have chosen to quote it as a whole % (would that be because anyone looking at that figure would say - hey that's 50%!?) and if you do that and say that the figure is 49%, that is factually, mathematically & statistically inaccurate. It's also pathetic & childish.

Frankly, it makes precisely 0.2% of a difference to me whether the SNP got 49.9% or 50.1% of the vote. Neither figure proves a majority in favour of independence. both figures show unprecedented support for a political party in the UK in recent times.

The one statistic that needs no rounding is that you have made 100% of a dick of yourself over this.

less than half voted for the snp mate. Sorry, but that's the fact.

that is correct. it is also correct to say 50% voted SNP. It is also wrong to say 49% voted SNP.

[LJS]

Context is everything. No wonder you have such difficulty with facts.

The whole devolution thing is proving itself an arse - even those who wanted it hate it (including you, who wants out of it) - but it's what we've got.

There's an issue of non-English MPs being able to vote on English matters, which is feckin' stupid. I understand why they feel it's right to vote on those things with the current set-up, but if the funding aspects are removed then there becomes no reason why those non-English MPs need to have a vote on English matters.

EVEL is a simple and easy fix to that issue (in the right circumstances). Nothing further needs to be done around that issue.

Everything about English governance is for England to decide. Not Scotland. It's the path that YOU have wanted.

While there's plenty of good reasons for more sweeping reforms for both the UK and for English 'devolution', nothing of those is required to address what gets referred to as the West Lothian question, which is what EVEL does (in the right circumstances) address.

Was that a bit difficult for you? Then no wonder you can't understand the concepts-in-fact around Scottish indy.

Thanks for the explanation. It was something of a waste of your precious time as I well understood that context is everything.EVEL is simply a weapon in your righteous crusade against the infidel hand-clapping, seat-stealing SNP, oppose it when it is opportune to do so, support it when it gives advantage to your campaign.

I will remind you that I have been consistent. I am perfectly happy to have EVEL - I have only practical objections to it - not moral or political. I have raised these on several occasions - they remain unaddressed.

My personal preference is EVEL Max (or more accurately rUKMAX)

[Comfy Bean]

I do not consider myself English. I consider myself British.

You say no offence meant, but you are grouping me with all the idiotic racists in the country. I have no desire to be considered more akin to some Tory c**t in Kent than someone in Edinburgh. I also know that I'd prefer to live in Edinburgh to Kent.

Stop highlighting differences. You're just following the bait of divide and rule. I'd much prefer to find common ground, and work together for electoral reform.

Also, Scotland has barely shifted away from the Tories at all. Their vote share is still 15%. It's a rejection of Labour.

Each to their own mate. As I said, no offence was meant and I certainly have never grouped you personally with any tory or racists ideals. I know that is not your bag. Sadly I have directy been called a Tory on here loads of times but thats the internet for you

I have never referred to myself as British or European but not in a " bad " way. I`ve always " felt " Scottish but not in a flag waving sort of way. I just think Scotland would be a fairer place if we were allowed to run things for ourselves but you know that.

It`s not me highlighting the differences thats the problem. In my opinion, the differences are huge and England is just much bigger as well as " different ". As you have highlighted Tory vote share up here is only 15%.

It is my view that the end of the UK as we know it would bring the benefits of political reform to us all. The fact that Scotland would have been very unlikely to elect a Tory government in my lifetime was an added bonus of course. I accept that any other country that wishes to elect the Tories is perfectly entitled to think they are doing the right thing.

[Comfy Bean]

I don't believe for a minute that the SNP will lead Scotland on a more progressive path................

I believe they started some time ago now. Were not heading back to the fox hunting convo again here are we........

Edited May 29, 2015 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

Nope, no one voted for pro-indie parties.

Sorry, how are we describing the Green`s and the SNP these days.....in the Indy thread as well

[Comfy Bean]

The fact you, LJS and viberunner have each needed to respond to me saying 49% proves I'm spot on about how and why it ruffles your feathers.

Oh dear.

Or.....I responded to agree with you but fortunately VR was here to keep us both right

[Comfy Bean]

You, personally.

YOU voted in support of cutting UK financial support to Scotland. It was in the SNP's manifesto.

When it happens and your lifestyle suffers as a result, you only have you to blame.

I voted in support of a whole lot more than that. Clearly I`m not expecting increased suffering when Indy comes.