The Dirty Independence Question

[viberunner]

and as it seems to have passed you by, the inability to discern what was meant was what kept "devo max" off the ballot paper 

 

 

 

There we go, Neil swallowing both of Cameron's Bullingdon Bollocks.

 

And swallowing them whole too.

 

Whatever next? Tax cuts for millionaires and the Bedroom Tax are efficient ways to tackle the deficit or at that belated point does his critical thinking and (supposedly - LOL!) anti-Tory scepticism kick in?

[LJS]

There we go, Neil swallowing both of Cameron's Bullingdon Bollocks.

 

And swallowing them whole too.

 

 

 

Yeah, vibe, & because Cameron has two bollocks & Hitler only had one that makes Cameron worse than Hitler!

[viberunner]

Hitler, well he two balls; but one, it was in the Albert Hall.

[russycarps]

You guys don't seem to mention your precious oil much these days. Why is that?

Anyway, I'm still monitoring prices don't worry. They plunged below $63 the other day! Can you believe it!

Forgive my bad memory, but what was the price the snp assured scots oil would never fall below again?

[eFestivals]

You're right that fraud is fraud is fraud. FFS! Some MPs committed fraud and have been prosecuted.

Let's list the Labour fraudsters.

 

Jim Devine. 16 months sentence for fraud.

Denis MacShane.  6 months sentence for fraud.

Margaret Moran. 16 months sentence for fraud.

 

Elliot Morley. 16 months sentence for fraud.

 

Let's list the Conservative fraudsters.

 

Lord Taylor of Warwick. 12 months sentence for fraud.

Lord Hanningfield. 9 months sentence for fraud.

 

Let's list the SNP fraudsters.

 

[THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK]

 

 

But to a (supposedly - LOL!) non-nationalist Englishman? THE SNP ARE THE FRAUDSTERS!

I see you only have squirrels. You'll say anything to avoid the mud that is rigthtfully Salmond's sticking to him.

The people who were prosecuted were bang to rights.

The people who weren't prosecuted - 342 people - only got away with that part because of how vaguely written many of the expenses rules were, which blurred the line for what was legally a crime and made conviction doubtful - but not for what was against the rules.

 

The moat house guy wasn't prosecuted. Can anyone justify that as a valid claim or an honest mistake? Only if they're brain dead.

People like Salmond knew beyond all doubt that their claim was outside of the rules and therefore fraudulent.

How many people do you know that give away thousands of pounds that is rightfully theirs? Do you do that? Or might you use the protection of the law to keep what is rightfully yours?

Not a single MP went the legal route. If that tells you nothing you know nothing.

I'm the man who said every fraudster MP should be banned from elected office. You're the man who says every fraudster MP should be banned from office unless they're an SNP MP, where their ritghtepousness is beyond dispute.

Which of the two of us is the moron? Take your pick, and show the world your morals.

 

[eFestivals]

There we go, Neil swallowing both of Cameron's Bullingdon Bollocks.

 

And swallowing them whole too.

 

Whatever next? Tax cuts for millionaires and the Bedroom Tax are efficient ways to tackle the deficit or at that belated point does his critical thinking and (supposedly - LOL!) anti-Tory scepticism kick in?

 

If Salmond hasn't been able to define it - and he hasn't - then I'll have to bow down to your superior skills and marvel that you're not already Scotland's first minister.

 

Myths are all you have.

 

Salmond was so unable to define it he omited the words from the SNP manifesto entirely.

 

You never voted for a vote on devo max, so you never got a vote on devo-max.

 

But horrible horrible Dave, giving what you voted for and not giving you what you didn't vote for. It must be because Scotland has its own erxceptional definition for 'democracy'.  Or it's own exceptional brain-dead morons, one or the other.

 

Nowadays you say you'll have another vote on indy when Scotland decides while you also say that Scotland never decided on a vote on devo max, and that's Chicken Dave's fault. :

Edited June 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[viberunner]

You guys don't seem to mention your precious oil much these days. Why is that?

Anyway, I'm still monitoring prices don't worry. They plunged below $63 the other day! Can you believe it!

 

Oil prices can go up as well as down.

 

But because they can go down as well as up it's a shame the City of London, who ponced all the profits, decided to give them out as ferraris and yachts to the spivs rather than have a national investment program such as Norway.

 

But I guess that's English business acumen for you... piss away all of Scotland's money on expensive toys and then laugh at Scotland for being poor... and more than that assert blame too.

 

Jews call this chutzpah but I call it c**tery.

[viberunner]

If Salmond hasn't been able to define it - and he hasn't 

 

It's not for him to define, is it? In a multiparty democracy it should be up for the parties to negotiate but instead it is for London parties to dictate. 

[eFestivals]

It's not for him to define, is it?

If he's asking for someothing and using specific words for it, then yes, he should know what he's asking for and what he's talking about.

FFS, first you champion fraud and not you're championing ignorance.

[kaosmark2]

But I guess that's English business acumen for you... piss away all of Scotland's money on expensive toys and then laugh at Scotland for being poor... and more than that assert blame too.

This isn't a nationalist issue. This is a capitalism issue.

 

But you're too racist and short-sighted to see that.

[eFestivals]

But I guess that's English business acumen for you... piss away all of Scotland's money on expensive toys and then laugh at Scotland for being poor... and more than that assert blame too.

 

and running the UK's finances for some of that was a Scotsman ... on no, he's no true Scotsman is he? Cos he disagrees with you.

 

It might have passed you by, but in the union called the UK we have common cause. That gets to mean that any part which might be doing well at any time gets to subsidise other parts.

 

Scotland managed just ten years of subsidising the UK in a whole century.

 

Right now, if I was of your narrow mind, I could quite rightly say about you that you "piss away all of England's money on expensive Scotsmen and then laugh at England for being poor... and more than that assert blame too."

 

But you see, it's only the kippers that do that sort of thing. Oh, and the snippers.

 

Two of a kind.

Edited June 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[viberunner]

 

It might have passed you by, but in the union called the UK we have common cause. 

 

What has passed you by - being the sort of "Marxist" who defends the instigators of the Bedroom Tax but attacks the likes of those who reject tuition fees - is the common cause is lining the pockets of English Tories.

[viberunner]

This isn't a nationalist issue. This is a capitalism issue.

 

But you're too racist and short-sighted to see that.

 

It's a nationalist issue when the two countries have very different views on capitalism.

 

England sold off all the water companies and billions of pounds from you water bills have been send to spivs to fund their jets and yachts. Scottish Water is a public body and as a result the quality is high, the prices are low (something over £80 cheaper than water prices in England), and when apprentice jobs were required the Scottish government was easily able to create them vias Scottish Water. And YES Scotland has a lot of rain so that does help, but it also has vast size and low population density so that also hinders (a lot of terrain to cover for leakage).

 

And yes I'm racist against many (not all) of the English. But then again I'm English, raised in England, lived and worked in many different English towns and cities, and left England (for Scotland) as an adult. There's a massive degree of English c**tery and my proof of that (should it be required) is something like 55% of the English electorate voted Tory or UKIP. (In Scotland it was under 17%).

 

There's a minority of people in England who are really fucking decent (and they tend to congregate together at decent places, such as festivals - so being you're here you're likely to be one of the good guys) but you have some bondage-level ponyboy blinkers on if you think England as a whole is worth defending.

[viberunner]

If he's asking for someothing and using specific words for it, then yes, he should know what he's asking for and what he's talking about.

 

 

But then he gets "trapped by precise definition", even the slightest deviation (be it imposed from outside, decided by the SNP) from his proposed definition means a vote for it isn't a real vote for it.

 

But in general terms the issue is well understood:

 

Full fiscal autonomy (FFA) – also known as devolution max, devo-max, fiscal federalism, independence lite or independence-minus, – is a particular form of far-reaching devolution proposed for Scotland. The term has come to describe a constitutional arrangement in which instead of receiving a block grant from the UK Exchequer as at present, the Scottish Parliament would receive all taxation levied in Scotland; it would be responsible for most spending in Scotland but make payments to the UK government to cover Scotland's share of the cost of providing certain UK-wide services, including at least defence and the conduct of foreign relations. Scottish fiscal autonomy – stopping short of full political independence – is usually promoted by advocates of a federal or confederal constitution for the United Kingdom.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_fiscal_autonomy_for_Scotland

 

Remember, this is the option that Scotland would have voted for and the reason the Scots were unable to vote for it was the Tory party deciding it even though the Tory party had only gained 15 of the 129 seats in Holyrood.

[kaosmark2]

It's a nationalist issue when the two countries have very different views on capitalism.

 

England sold off all the water companies and billions of pounds from you water bills have been send to spivs to fund their jets and yachts. Scottish Water is a public body and as a result the quality is high, the prices are low (something over £80 cheaper than water prices in England), and when apprentice jobs were required the Scottish government was easily able to create them vias Scottish Water. And YES Scotland has a lot of rain so that does help, but it also has vast size and low population density so that also hinders (a lot of terrain to cover for leakage).

 

And yes I'm racist against many (not all) of the English. But then again I'm English, raised in England, lived and worked in many different English towns and cities, and left England (for Scotland) as an adult. There's a massive degree of English c**tery and my proof of that (should it be required) is something like 55% of the English electorate voted Tory or UKIP. (In Scotland it was under 17%).

 

There's a minority of people in England who are really fucking decent (and they tend to congregate together at decent places, such as festivals - so being you're here you're likely to be one of the good guys) but you have some bondage-level ponyboy blinkers on if you think England as a whole is worth defending.

That isn't different national views on capitalism. That's twattish governments selling off public assets to their mates.

 

I don't think England as a whole is worth defending. I think people are worth defending. I think society is worth defending, and I think racism is worth chastising. I despise the c**tery that comes in little England, the home counties, etc. That doesn't mean I will abandon my principles of caring about humanity if something happens to benefit them as well as others.

[eFestivals]

What has passed you by - being the sort of "Marxist" who defends the instigators of the Bedroom Tax but attacks the likes of those who reject tuition fees - is the common cause is lining the pockets of English Tories.

 

How that common cause pans out is via the democractic choice. Unlike you I'm not so stupid as to believe that redrawing the boundaries to get the result you want changes anything about how people think or vote.

 

And it's not the free tuition fess i requect, it's the Thatcherist policy of robbing the poor to give middle class privileges that I reject. You know, the Thatcherism that you praise.

 

And I reject the stupidity that has you think it's you that's paying for those free tuition fees.

 

Anything else you need reminding of?

[eFestivals]

But in general terms the issue is well understood:

 

The SNP are not making a general terms demand tho, are they?

 

They're making a making it up as they go along demand, and that's impossible to satisfy.

Edited June 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Remember, this is the option that Scotland would have voted for

that is, if Scotland had actually asked for a vote on it.

Scotland didn't ask for a vote on it.

Who's to blame?

[eFestivals]

something like 55% of the English electorate voted Tory or UKIP. (In Scotland it was under 17%).

Nationalist was what they voted.

When you thought you were rubbing a lamp and the genie could be put back in the bottle, all you were really doing was w*nking.

And I ain't gonna defend the tories or kippers policies because I'm no nationalist, while you'll defend anything at all in the name of nationalism - fraud, lies, whatever.

Edited June 16, 2015 by eFestivals

[LJS]

that is, if Scotland had actually asked for a vote on it.

Scotland didn't ask for a vote on it.

Who's to blame?

Oh, I don't know who's to blame. The received wisdom is that Cameron refused to put devo-max on the ballot paper, only to effectively add it in at the

last minute, making a no vote a yes to devo max vote & bizarrely removing the "no more devo" option from the ballot paper.

Odd tactics, to say the least.

You could easily make a claim for Cameron being to blame for first excluding & then including further devo as an option.

Edited June 16, 2015 by LJS

[russycarps]

Oil prices can go up as well as down.

But because they can go down as well as up it's a shame the City of London, who ponced all the profits, decided to give them out as ferraris and yachts to the spivs rather than have a national investment program such as Norway.

But I guess that's English business acumen for you... piss away all of Scotland's money on expensive toys and then laugh at Scotland for being poor... and more than that assert blame too.

Jews call this chutzpah but I call it c**tery.

If it hadn't have been for those pesky English you'd all be millionaires huh

[Comfy Bean]

Hey russy. Thanks for the oil update. Has been a while.

Fact is, only your good self and probs Neil claimed it was ever about anyone in Scotland getting rich quick.

As I pointed out to you already, the oil price is down the shitter yet support for indy continues to grow. Think that through mate.

[russycarps]

Hey russy. Thanks for the oil update. Has been a while.

Fact is, only your good self and probs Neil claimed it was ever about anyone in Scotland getting rich quick.

As I pointed out to you already, the oil price is down the shitter yet support for indy continues to grow. Think that through mate.

Is support for indy growing? Sounds like rumour and supposition to me.

The only hard evidence we have is the result of the referendum. Which resulted in a resounding defeat for the nationalists.

I'll be back in a few weeks to update the oil price. Don't hold your breath for rising prices though, Iran will soon be back to the top table

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-15/longest-oil-glut-in-decades-looms-as-opec-pumps-up-market-share

(viberunner, I'm happy to help you out with any of the concepts you don't understand, I know from your posts economics isn't your strong point)

[Comfy Bean]

Thanks russ. So much for you taking my advice and thinking things through :-)

Support for indy has been growing during the last decade. It ain't no rumour mate.

20 odd % is estimated around a decade ago and as you helpfully pointed out not quite enough last year at around 45%. A fair estimate is now 50% although there are polls showing higher.

56 seats and you guys electing the tories is unlikely to reverse the direction of travel. Surely we can agree on that :-)

What's the price as we speak?

Are you saying it will be higher or lower in a month? I'll guess higher and higher again in 52 weeks.

[LJS]

Is support for indy growing? Sounds like rumour and supposition to me.

The only hard evidence we have is the result of the referendum. Which resulted in a resounding defeat for the nationalists.

I'll be back in a few weeks to update the oil price. Don't hold your breath for rising prices though, Iran will soon be back to the top table

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-15/longest-oil-glut-in-decades-looms-as-opec-pumps-up-market-share

(viberunner, I'm happy to help you out with any of the concepts you don't understand, I know from your posts economics isn't your strong point)

Ain't it funny how we were told again & again throughout the indyref campaign, how one of problems was the volatility (aka unpredictability) of the oil price.

Astonishingly, it has suddenly become possible to confidently predict oil prices.

In a week when a whole pile of economists have comprehensively debunked the Tory's (& to a lesser extent Labour's) crazy austerity policies, you & Neil continue to swallow Tory propaganda whilst bizarrely claiming to be radical.

You also continue to comprehensively miss the point (by miles) of those of us arguing for Indy.

Read up in what the vast majority of economists think before you start lecturing the rest of us.

Edited June 16, 2015 by LJS