The Dirty Independence Question

[viberunner]

Scotland didn't ask for a vote on it.

 

 

Who asked?

[eFestivals]

Who asked?

No one at all in any democratic sense.

Which is the point.

Scotland asked for an indyref, nothing else. Scotland didn't get a vote on devo max because it didn't ask for one.

[eFestivals]

Ain't it funny how we were told again & again throughout the indyref campaign, how one of problems was the volatility (aka unpredictability) of the oil price.

Astonishingly, it has suddenly become possible to confidently predict oil prices.

1. you snippers said it was a lie that ther oil price was volatile. You were wrong.

2. the latest govt prediction states very clearly that because of price volatility the prediction isn't necessarily what will happen.

But the real point is that Scotland cannot self-finance at current spending levels, and the SNP knowingly lied to you that it could.

Edited June 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Is support for indy growing? Sounds like rumour and supposition to me.

more than a few SNP voters wised up to them yesterday, when the SNP teamed up with UKIP, the DUP and the tory nasties to vote in support of making the EU ref harder to win.

The snippers are trying to play it as Labour supporting the tories - and it's selling well to those who already roll out the "red tories" phrase at every opportunity - but those who don't have shit for brains have seen it for what it is.

Labour supported their ideals and didn't support the nutty nationalists. The SNP showed their only principle is to  hammer the wedge.

 

(meanwhile, I'll remind the snippers here that they argued in favour of the govt using its resources behind one side of a referndum campaign when the ref was about Scotland, so they can't argue in favour of how the SNP voted yesterday without being hypocrites .... plus of course there'll be a hell of lot of 'out' media that will need to be countered if the vote is to be fair: if the govt has to step back, then so should all arms of both sides of the campaign)

Edited June 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[russycarps]

What's the price as we speak?

Are you saying it will be higher or lower in a month? I'll guess higher and higher again in 52 weeks.

 

 

so sanctions against Iran being relaxed and them being allowed to sell their oil much more freely will cause prices to rise?

 

Righto!

Edited June 17, 2015 by russycarps

[russycarps]

Ain't it funny how we were told again & again throughout the indyref campaign, how one of problems was the volatility (aka unpredictability) of the oil price.

Astonishingly, it has suddenly become possible to confidently predict oil prices.

In a week when a whole pile of economists have comprehensively debunked the Tory's (& to a lesser extent Labour's) crazy austerity policies, you & Neil continue to swallow Tory propaganda whilst bizarrely claiming to be radical.

You also continue to comprehensively miss the point (by miles) of those of us arguing for Indy.

Read up in what the vast majority of economists think before you start lecturing the rest of us.

 

 

 

I'm not talking about austerity, I'm talking about the price of oil, which the snp said was IMPOSSIBLE to drop below $100. 

 

Are they liars or utterly incompetent? You decide!

[eFestivals]

You also continue to comprehensively miss the point (by miles) of those of us arguing for Indy.

So what exactly is the point?

You started off saying it would make things better for the poorest. You now accept that the poorest would be worse off.

And yet you're still not selling indie as "vote indy, be worse off", you're still pretending the SNP's bullshit is true.

Read up in what the vast majority of economists think before you start lecturing the rest of us.

those would be the economistswho you rejecxted when they all told you that Scotland would be fucked?

(apart from the ones in the pay of the SNP, who are so competent the lead one said Greece wouldn't need a bailout )

What are economists saying about Greece today, LJS? Are they saying they can spend other people's money forever and balancing the books doesn't matter?

Or has the Greek economy fallen deeply into the shit when it being proppeed up with other people's money ended?

When Scotland loses the (approx) £10Bn a year that gets sent from rUK (in more than just the block grant), what will happen to the Scottish economy? Wuill it grow by record rates (never seen anywhere in the world) as predicted by the SNP, or will it shrink hugely because the money supply has shrunk?

Can that missing money be made up by running the printing presses flat out, as the new-Dracma advocates say about Greece? Or does money need to be backed by something tangible for it to have value?

Answers on a postcard to The Economic Illiterates, The Suicide Squad, SNP Headquarters, Scotlandshire.

[eFestivals]

I'm not talking about austerity, I'm talking about the price of oil, which the snp said was IMPOSSIBLE to drop below $100.

that's noT quite correct. The baseline in Snow White Salmond's white paper prediction was $77.

The average he worked to tho was $113.

Edited June 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[russycarps]

that's noT quite correct. The baseline in Snow White Salmond's white paper prediction was $77.

The average he worked to tho was $113.

 

 

gah I really need to print off a copy of that white paper for easy reference!

[eFestivals]

gah I really need to print off a copy of that white paper for easy reference!

If you've read as much as me, these sorts of facts get embedded in your brain.

I reckon I've read so much I'd easily have Salmond and sturgeon in any discussion around their claims.

[russycarps]

So what exactly is the point?

You started off saying it would make things better for the poorest. You now accept that the poorest would be worse off.

And yet you're still not selling indie as "vote indy, be worse off", you're still pretending the SNP's bullshit is true.

those would be the economistswho you rejecxted when they all told you that Scotland would be fucked?

(apart from the ones in the pay of the SNP, who are so competent the lead one said Greece wouldn't need a bailout )

What are economists saying about Greece today, LJS? Are they saying they can spend other people's money forever and balancing the books doesn't matter?

Or has the Greek economy fallen deeply into the shit when it being proppeed up with other people's money ended?

When Scotland loses the (approx) £10Bn a year that gets sent from rUK (in more than just the block grant), what will happen to the Scottish economy? Wuill it grow by record rates (never seen anywhere in the world) as predicted by the SNP, or will it shrink hugely because the money supply has shrunk?

Can that missing money be made up by running the printing presses flat out, as the new-Dracma advocates say about Greece? Or does money need to be backed by something tangible for it to have value?

Answers on a postcard to The Economic Illiterates, The Suicide Squad, SNP Headquarters, Scotlandshire.

 

 

You've clearly forgotten about scottish exceptionalism

 

also something about it all being westminster/rich english bankers/the queen/david beckham* fault

 

*delete as applicable for who they are blaming this week

[eFestivals]

You've clearly forgotten about scottish exceptionalism

Not Scottish exceptionalism, SNP exceptionalism.

So exceptional they can:-

1. buck the markets

2. create never-seen-before growth rates

3. magick money out of the air.

4. force the oil price upwards.

5. force the EU to change its rules by far more than Cameron is trying (just check the white paper claims for the EU). These include:-

a. the abandonment of deficit rules (yeah, they'll be happy to do that after the Greek fiasco )

b. the abandonment of the requirement of a central bank and sovereign currency for member states at entry (Montenegro tried that one, how's its EU membership application going?)

c. the abandonment of the free market/free movement rules

d. the abandonment of the 'Euro project'

e. the abandonment of the EU entry rules

f.  the amandonment of all of the existing EU treaties.

All this will be a breeze for the SNP as they're so dedicated to the EU project, apart from all of its rules and treaties..

 

(I actually read someone yesterday claiming that the EU will do all of this as a 'fuck off' to Westminster )

And then there's also all of the other stuff - about how regionality should be requirement for the UK but not for Scotland; how referenums should be held in the UK but not in Scotland; etc, etc, etc.

If you don't vote SNP you're no true Scotman.

Edited June 17, 2015 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

I'm not talking about austerity, I'm talking about the price of oil, which the snp said was IMPOSSIBLE to drop below $100. 

 

Are they liars or utterly incompetent? You decide!

 

 

that's noT quite correct. The baseline in Snow White Salmond's white paper prediction was $77.

 

 

You`ll be glad you put impossible in caps and mentioned incompetent in the same post 

You`d think by now you pair would have your lines worked out.  

[Comfy Bean]

 

If you don't vote SNP you're no true Scotman.

 

So glad no-one from the YES side of this discussion makes comments like this on here.

[eFestivals]

So glad no-one from the YES side of this discussion makes comments like this on here.

 

Did you miss the recent use of 'quisling'?

 

Did you miss the (less recent) denials of Gordon Brown as Scottish?

 

Etc, etc.

 

It's nowhere near as bad here as in the worst places, but it's still here.

[eFestivals]

You`ll be glad you put impossible in caps and mentioned incompetent in the same post 

You`d think by now you pair would have your lines worked out.  

 

As you've just noticed, I'll still go with stating the truth even when inconvenient

 

And in this case the truth is still plenty damning enough. It's why the SNP know they've lost the economic argument.

 

One day their supporters might even catch up.

[Comfy Bean]

Not sure where you are going with this mate. You post what you like. No worries here....was just saying it's a pretty poor statement but each to their own :-)

I'm glad the argument wasn't like that in the real world.

You try hard daily to make it about being anti English as for reasons I never understand you don't like to admit it was about anti austerity anti tory progressive politics.

[eFestivals]

Not sure where you are going with this mate. You post what you like. No worries here....was just saying it's a pretty poor statement but each to their own :-)

I'm glad the argument wasn't like that in the real world.

You try hard daily to make it about being anti English as for reasons I never understand you don't like to admit it was about anti austerity anti tory progressive politics.

 

how is me referencing how Scotsmen have turned on other Scotsmen - here included - somehow about anything anti-English? :lol:

[eFestivals]

you don't like to admit it was about anti austerity anti tory progressive politics.

 

 

It's only about anti-austerity if you have the money. Where's the money?

 

It's only anti tory if you new state is banning political parties.

 

It's only progressive when something progressive happens. Robbing the poor to benefit the better off is not progressive.

[Comfy Bean]

OK. Maybe I'm wrong here. Help me out then. Can you quote someone on here saying if you don't vote snp your no true Scotsman.

Or Scotsmen turning on other Scotsmen here included. That would be interesting as well.

I know your not being serious if you are claiming you have never claimed any of the indy debate was about being anti English. I can quote up posts of yours talking of those " nasty English " if you like?

[Comfy Bean]

As I said, anti tory anti austerity progressive politics and you don't like to admit it.

I accept your views on ffa and the economic future of an indy Scotland. We all know you don't think it's about being pro tory and pro austerity so what's stopping you from accepting this. It's quite clear to everyone else how the people of Scotland voted :-)

[LJS]

No one at all in any democratic sense.

Which is the point.

Scotland asked for an indyref, nothing else. Scotland didn't get a vote on devo max because it didn't ask for one.

 

Can you remind me who i could have voted for had I wished a referendum on Devo max?

 

that's right no one.

 

So Scotland didn't get a Devo Max cos they didn't vote for that option that no one was offering. 

 

For some bizarre reason you seem to be unwilling to accept that it was Dave's decision to rule this out. 

 

1. you snippers said it was a lie that ther oil price was volatile. You were wrong.

2. the latest govt prediction states very clearly that because of price volatility the prediction isn't necessarily what will happen.

But the real point is that Scotland cannot self-finance at current spending levels, and the SNP knowingly lied to you that it could.

 

I don't believe I have ever denied that the oil price was volatile - nor indeed has anyone on here.

 

The equally real point is that the UK cannot self - finance at current levels and indeed hasn't self- financed for about 43 of the last 50 years.

 

 

more than a few SNP voters wised up to them yesterday, when the SNP teamed up with UKIP, the DUP and the tory nasties to vote in support of making the EU ref harder to win.

The snippers are trying to play it as Labour supporting the tories - and it's selling well to those who already roll out the "red tories" phrase at every opportunity - but those who don't have shit for brains have seen it for what it is.

Labour supported their ideals and didn't support the nutty nationalists. The SNP showed their only principle is to  hammer the wedge.

 

(meanwhile, I'll remind the snippers here that they argued in favour of the govt using its resources behind one side of a referndum campaign when the ref was about Scotland, so they can't argue in favour of how the SNP voted yesterday without being hypocrites .... plus of course there'll be a hell of lot of 'out' media that will need to be countered if the vote is to be fair: if the govt has to step back, then so should all arms of both sides of the campaign)

 

Astonishingly, you are again comapring apples with pears. Yesterday's vote which Labour didn't support was not against government resources being used in favour of yes - it was opposed to the long standing principle of "purdah" which has always applied in elections & referenda (as far as i am aware, I am sure you will correct me if I am mistaken) It's a reasonable rule which shouldn't be abandoned because doing so would favour the cause you & I support.

 

Of course there are lots of other measures which could improve the chances of a yes vote which you do't seem to support (votes for 16 year olds, using euro election franchise, quadruple lock on result)  

 

So what exactly is the point?

You started off saying it would make things better for the poorest. You now accept that the poorest would be worse off.

And yet you're still not selling indie as "vote indy, be worse off", you're still pretending the SNP's bullshit is true.

 

 

Lies. I have never accepted Indy would make the poorest worse off - you are getting confusing you endlessly repeating it with me accepting it - these are different things

Did you miss the recent use of 'quisling'?

 

Did you miss the (less recent) denials of Gordon Brown as Scottish?

 

Etc, etc.

 

It's nowhere near as bad here as in the worst places, but it's still here.

 

Someone has denied Gordon brown is Scottish? I missed that.

 

Anyway as our Nationalism (being civic) does not depend on our Scottishness, it is a bit odd to use the Scottishness of Gordon Brown as a weapon against us - almost racist I'd say!

 

 Anyway, you are not exactly a shrinking violet when it comes to abusing your opponents - so I suggest you check the panes in your glass house.

[eFestivals]

OK. Maybe I'm wrong here. Help me out then. Can you quote someone on here saying if you don't vote snp your no true Scotsman.

Or Scotsmen turning on other Scotsmen here included. That would be interesting as well.

you can search in this thread for the use of 'quisling'.

More difficult to find perhaps will be someone (perhaps even you, I forget who) attempting to deny Gordon Brown as Scottish.

Now, you can cook up whatever you want as why you see those words being used, but I see it for what it is.

 

The same sort of thing is much more prevalent in places of greater indy supporters, btw. I'm sure you're well aware of it.

 

I know your not being serious if you are claiming you have never claimed any of the indy debate was about being anti English. I can quote up posts of yours talking of those " nasty English " if you like?

You could if you like, but you'd actually only be highlighting things back to your side of things.

It's the unspoken subtext that everyone can see from down here.

 

Even in your post just now, you said how indie is anti-tory - like there's none in Scotland (or will they be expelled? ) but who must exist somewhere (I wonder where?), and they're the "hated other" that every nationalist movement needs to be able to sustain itself.

[eFestivals]

As I said, anti tory anti austerity progressive politics and you don't like to admit it.

I accept your views on ffa and the economic future of an indy Scotland. We all know you don't think it's about being pro tory and pro austerity so what's stopping you from accepting this. It's quite clear to everyone else how the people of Scotland voted :-)

 

anti-tory - against Scotsmen. And you wonder why I do the "no true Scotsman" thing.

[Comfy Bean]

I have never ever said that Gordon Brown isn't Scottish or implied it in any way.

Utter garbage. Unspoken subtext lol