The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

It's merely another version of the UKIP phenomenon, and surely they get that?

People are pissed off with the traditional parties, so vote for the next biggest alternative as their method of protest, combined with the normal "it's all those foreigners fault" bollocks that nationalist parties always do.

I really don't know why I bother.

I'm off to have a debate with a brick wall. At least It won't continually spout the same old push about ukip=Snp. Yes = anti english.

Yawns.

Edited April 23, 2014 by LJS

[eFestivals]

I really don't know why I bother.

I'm off to have a debate with a brick wall. At least It won't continually spout the same old push about ukip=Snp. Yes = anti english.

Yawns.

I've said neither of those things, but the fact that you want to believe that I have only shows how much of what you're within you're not seeing.

[eFestivals]

I really don't know why I bother.

I'm off to have a debate with a brick wall. At least It won't continually spout the same old push about ukip=Snp. Yes = anti english.

Yawns.

PS ... which of the two of us is now doing the "yes campaign = SNP" thing?

Edited April 23, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

what I'm actually saying is this...

nationalist parties = UKIP and the SNP.

nationalist parties = anti-foreigner.

Now, if you understand politics as well you you like to believe, please do point out where those two things are wrong in reality.

[russycarps]

It's merely another version of the UKIP phenomenon, and surely they get that?

People are pissed off with the traditional parties, so vote for the next biggest alternative as their method of protest, combined with the normal "it's all those foreigners fault" bollocks that nationalist parties always do.

I suppose my colleagues havent given it that much thought, as scotland is just a picturesque, cold region of the uk to them.

They dont understand why anyone would willingly choose to leave the security and prosperity of the UK, and swap it for something uncertain and almost certainly inferior.

It's clear to everyone but the scots themselves that they are onto a very very good thing by being part of the uk.

Edited April 23, 2014 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

They dont understand why anyone would willingly choose to leave the security and prosperity of the UK, and swap it for something uncertain and almost certainly inferior.

It's clear to everyone but the scots themselves that they are onto a very very good thing by being part of the uk.

I disagree. It depends on what you use as the measure.

The problem I'm seeing with the Scottish referendum is that nearly every tape measure in Scotland seems to have been marked up incorrectly, with the numbers scattered all over the place and only the favourite numbers seemingly getting noticed.

Edited April 23, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

what I'm actually saying is this...

nationalist parties = UKIP and the SNP.

nationalist parties = anti-foreigner.

Now, if you understand politics as well you you like to believe, please do point out where those two things are wrong in reality.

In Scotland

[eFestivals]

In Scotland

so the SNP aren't a party who operate on the idea that Scotland is a nation that is best run by (just) the people within that nation?

And the SNP don't gain their support by saying Scotland's problems are the result of people outside of Scotland, but that the successes are internal?

I think you need some new eyes and ears. And possibly some other body parts too.

[LJS]

Oh...almost forgot...happy St. George's day & Shakespeare's birthday.

In the words of the bard.

"Come, gentlemen, I hope we shall drink down all unkindness."

[eFestivals]

Oh...almost forgot...happy St. George's day & Shakespeare's birthday.

In the words of the bard.

"Come, gentlemen, I hope we shall drink down all unkindness."

what you Scots don't get is that so few of us "English" feel the need to do the nationalist thing. It brings us nothing.

And so there's probably a tiny number who'll read those words of yours and have already realised that it's either of St George's Day or Willy's birthday.

[LJS]

so the SNP aren't a party who operate on the idea that Scotland is a nation that is best run by (just) the people within that nation?

Yes they are, but note the "people within the nation" include the 450,000 English, many of whom are responsible for keeping some of the more remote communities in Scotland going. As well as the irish, Poles, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis. But not the 800,000 Scots who live in England. Because it is decision for those who live in Scotland. It's why there are groups such as Asians for Independence & a Facebook page for English People for Scottish Independence

I did a wee search for "asians for Ukip" I didn't have much luck.

And the SNP don't gain their support by saying Scotland's problems are the result of people outside of Scotland, but that the successes are internal?

I would say it's more about institutions than people - Ukip scare you with threats of Romanians & Bulgarians massing on the borders to steal your jobs. The debate in Scotland is much more sophisticated & we do make a distinction between different areas. There are 2 north/south divides in the UK. Only one is defined by the border between Scotland & England. If you can convince me that a a NBNP (North British National Party) would stand any realistic chance of success - then I'll abandon Scottish Independence & go for that. In life you have to go aim for what is achievable.

& of course there is a small but vociferous anti English element in Scotland - but you should not mistake that for what most of us are about, any more than I would judge the English by the actions of the BNP or the EDL.

I think you need some new eyes and ears. And possibly some other body parts too.

thanks for the kind offer - I am reasonably happy with most of my body parts, although in fairness, some of them have had mixed reviews over the years

[LJS]

A rather more modern english bard speaks

People of Scotland – vote yes, and set us English free

http://gu.com/p/3zjg5

Edited April 23, 2014 by LJS

[Buff124]

NEIL: THE SNP ARE ANTI-FOREIGNER

Either that was posted to provoke a hostile reaction (trolling)

Or it was posted to generate more responses (more hits= more adverts = more income)

Or it was posted due to a lack of knowledge on the subject

Options one or two do not become this site, whose motto is 'Experience the spirit of Glastonbury all year round' . It makes all comment here a waste of time.

Let's take the third option then.

The SNP (and by implication anyone who is comfortable with their existence) are quote anti-foreigner unquote. That's what I've just read ? That one of the main political parties in Scotland, who have successfully run the Scottish Government since 2007 within the UK framework, co-operating with Tory and Labour Westminster governments, is anti-foreigner ? The party that wants to retain membership of the EU and other international bodies, is anti-foreigner ? The party that would happily welcome 1m immigrants to Scotland is anti-foreigner ? I'm sure you can understand my confusion regarding your statement.

In a trivial quest to improve E-Festers knowledge of Scotland, here's a quiz question:

Who was the first Soviet Union ambassador to the UK ?

Ditto with the St George's and Shakespeare related felicitations

[eFestivals]

Yes they are, but note the "people within the nation" include the 450,000 English

irrelevant. It's merely a different way of doing the same nationalist thing.

As proven if you listen to how they operate. It's always the fault of those outside the country!

I did a wee search for "asians for Ukip" I didn't have much luck.

the fact that you did that only gets to show that you still don't get how nationalists operate.

Ukip scare you with threats of Romanians & Bulgarians massing on the borders to steal your jobs.

and the SNP scare you by saying England is stealing all the jobs and money via Westminster.

(when the facts actually show that's not happening with either!!!).

The debate in Scotland is much more sophisticated

PMSL.

Believe that ridiculous statement if you wish, but if it's so sophisticated, how come none of you are calling Salmond to account with his whit paper that's trying to steal your country from you with lies?

Or even that the SNP is a standard nationalist party doing the standard nationalist thing (even if the policies have a different slant to the more-normal nationalist policies)?

There are 2 north/south divides in the UK. Only one is defined by the border between Scotland & England.

and you like to tell people that they don't understand Scotland?

If you can convince me that a a NBNP (North British National Party) would stand any realistic chance of success - then I'll abandon Scottish Independence & go for that. In life you have to go aim for what is achievable.

Now you're just being ridiculous. And show again how little you get the nationalist thing.

& of course there is a small but vociferous anti English element in Scotland

and the SNP, and anyone who votes for it.

Just because they substitute "Westminster" for "England" doesn't make it anything different.

- but you should not mistake that for what most of us are about, any more than I would judge the English by the actions of the BNP or the EDL.

I can only judge by actions. The SNP are not called to account or challenged, but cheered.

-----

Look, you're quite happy to flag up the ridiculous things that come from all the organisations you expect those ridiculous things to come from - and so actually, they're not so ridiculous after all. They're what any sensible person would expect in all circumstances. They prove nothing about anything meaningful, they just mean tory twats are tory twats.

But never does anyone on the yes side flag up similarly ridiculous things within the white paper or about the white paper. Instead, it's not to be criticised, yet there's an almost-endless list of valid criticisms and mis-representations.

Both you and Buff are not able to see a nationalist party acting in the way that nationalist parties always do.

Both you and Buff have said "the UK have said all the debt is theirs" while both of you have ignored the following sentence of the same statement - that Scotland is responsible for part of the debt and will have it if independent.

I think (might be wrong with this one, don't take offence) both you and Buff have also said that Faslane is an immovable red line, but the same 'no' from all UK parties is a bluff, something that will change.

Both you and Buff have said that the denials of CU by those major UK politicians who were prepared to go on record is meaningless, but you (maybe Buff too, I forget) celebrated that unnamed minster who said CU was a possibility as being an almost-certainty of CU for iScotland.

And then both of you claim that iScotland will be fine because it has a more sophisticated electorate.

(BTW, I've got little respect for the intelligence of the UK electorate as a whole, just to be clear that I don't think Scotland as worse).

Saying things like "sophisticated electorate" doesn't prove anything, just as saying "every Scot will have £300k from the oil" is patent bollocks, just as saying the world will cave in if Scotland votes yes is bollocks.

But only the last one is worthy of comment from the north.

Edited April 23, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

Well said Buff,

& that will be the mighty John McLean, I should imagine

The Scots have always been INTERnationalists as much as nationalists.

Our national Bard wrote a song called a Man's a Man for a' that, the final verse of which goes

Then let us pray that come it may,
(As come it will for a' that,)
That Sense and Worth, o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree, an' a' that.
For a' that, an' a' that,
That man to man, the world o'er,
Shall brithers be for a' that.

Translations available on request.

It was sung at the opening of the Scottish Parliament in 1999

It brought a tear to my eye then & damn near did it again now

[eFestivals]

Let's take the third option then.

Or alternatively, perhaps address what I actually said and not what your abilities want to understand me as saying?

The SNP (and by implication anyone who is comfortable with their existence) are quote anti-foreigner unquote.

If that's really a direct quote of my words (I can't be bothered to check, tho I accept it might be), you're simply failing to understand the short-hand I was using in that particular instance.

I'm trying to show you how UKIP and the SNP operate in the same manner (but with different policies). That requires me to use language which applies across both parties, and while I've tried to be careful with my choice of words to keep them strictly applicable I've perhaps not always succeeded.

That's what I've just read ? That one of the main political parties in Scotland, who have successfully run the Scottish Government since 2007 within the UK framework, co-operating with Tory and Labour Westminster governments, is anti-foreigner ? The party that wants to retain membership of the EU and other international bodies, is anti-foreigner ? The party that would happily welcome 1m immigrants to Scotland is anti-foreigner ? I'm sure you can understand my confusion regarding your statement.

Yes, the party that blames all Scotland's ills on foreigners. You know... how everything is the fault of Westminster, tories, Eton-ites, the English. These are all entities outside of Scotland - and so 'foreign' to Scotland.

With both you and LJS, my first struggle was to get you both past the idea that because I wasn't cheering you on, I must be a "project fear" supporter. Why was that?

It's not because you've been taught the idea for 25+ years that anyone who doesn't go along with a self-serving Scottish agenda must be an imperialist trying to cow Scotland to serve England, eh?

Edited April 23, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

Neil

I hate to be rude - I know you never would, but you haven't a clue.

I have neither the time nor inclination to go through your petty list of half truths & exaggerations.

Whether you intend it as such. I take it as a personal insult that because I am in favour of Independence for Scotland, I am somehow anti-English & some sort of closet racist. You may say ( no doubt you will) that that's not what you have said. It is the clear implication from all that you have said.

You have no idea how offensive I find that. There is racism in Scotland - I know because I have fought it & will continue to fight it until the day I die. And I certainly will not be lectured by you about it. Just in case there is any confusion on this, although I have not concerned myself greatly with it, if I felt it was an issue, I would be equally opposed to anti-English racism.

[eFestivals]

A rather more modern english bard speaks

People of Scotland – vote yes, and set us English free

http://gu.com/p/3zjg5

Yeah, some wonderful smart words, of the calibre of the whole of the yes campaign.

"The English are looking at the benefits that devolution has brought the Scots and asking why they are not able to enjoy the same."

The answer to that Mr Bragg, is that England can't afford to do that, because the Scots have all their money, so England ends up having to give its 'spare' money to Wales and NI.

If you want true equality within this nation Mr Bragg, the greed of the Scots in demanding everything of theirs is to be condemned.

[Buff124]

NEIL: "It's not because you've been taught the idea for 25+ years that anyone who doesn't go along with a self-serving Scottish agenda must be an imperialist trying to cow Scotland to serve England, eh?"


.......and the goalposts just got shifted right there.

Now its about a clash of ideologies ? Imperialsim versus Republicanism ?

JLS, yep I was thinking of John MacLean. But I got it wrong. He was Soviet Consul in Scotland. Everyday's a schoolday. To quote:

"In recognition of his principled stand against the mass slaughter of ordinary people in the First World War the Bolsheviks elected MacLean an Honorary President of the First All Russian Congress of Soviets, along with Lenin, Trotsky, Liebknecht, Adler, and Spiridonova, which was ecstatically received on his beloved Clyde. Early in January, Maxim Litvinov, Russian Ambassador in Britain, sent these instructions to MacLean: ‘ I am writing to their Russian Consul in Glasgow informing him of your appointment and ordering him to hand over to you the Consulate. He may refuse to do so, in which case you will open up a new Consulate and make it public through the press. Your position may be difficult somehow, but you will have my support ... It is most important to keep me informed ( and through me the Russian Soviets) of the Labour Movement in North Britain’. MacLean opened the new Consulate at 12 South Portland Street, Gorbals, Glasgow",

See more at: http://www.scottishrepublicansocialistmovement.org/pages/srsmjohnmacleanscottishrepublicansocialist.aspx#sthash.64I18TBo.dpuf

[eFestivals]

Whether you intend it as such. I take it as a personal insult that because I am in favour of Independence for Scotland, I am somehow anti-English & some sort of closet racist.

I've not said that nor even suggested it.

And yet, now those words are making me think about your words here, I can remember lots of criticisms of things outside of Scotland ("Westminster", "tories" etc), but not a word of things within.

Is everything of Scotland so perfect that it's beyond criticism, or is that the result of something else?

What i do think is that you're a victim of a massive propaganda campaign, no differently to how those that might vote UKIP are.

(and because you're having trouble with any mention of UKIP, i'll point out that it's the propaganda campaigns I'm talking about, and not the subject & focus of that propaganda).

If you don't like that that's unfortunate, but ultimately little different to how you're happy to be telling me how powers outside of your nation have fucked your nation.

You have no idea how offensive I find that. There is racism in Scotland - I know because I have fought it & will continue to fight it until the day I die. And I certainly will not be lectured by you about it. Just in case there is any confusion on this, although I have not concerned myself greatly with it, if I felt it was an issue, I would be equally opposed to anti-English racism.

If all your words there are 100% true, you've no need at all to feel the slightest insult.

Now, care to point out to me some stuff from the yes campaign where the problems being mentioned are the result of what happens within Scotland? And then we can all walk away happy in the knowledge that we're all able to identify shite no matter where it might originate.

[LJS]

NEIL: "It's not because you've been taught the idea for 25+ years that anyone who doesn't go along with a self-serving Scottish agenda must be an imperialist trying to cow Scotland to serve England, eh?"

.......and the goalposts just got shifted right there.

Now its about a clash of ideologies ? Imperialsim versus Republicanism ?

JLS, yep I was thinking of John MacLean. But I got it wrong. He was Soviet Consul in Scotland. Everyday's a schoolday. To quote:

"In recognition of his principled stand against the mass slaughter of ordinary people in the First World War the Bolsheviks elected MacLean an Honorary President of the First All Russian Congress of Soviets, along with Lenin, Trotsky, Liebknecht, Adler, and Spiridonova, which was ecstatically received on his beloved Clyde. Early in January, Maxim Litvinov, Russian Ambassador in Britain, sent these instructions to MacLean: ‘ I am writing to their Russian Consul in Glasgow informing him of your appointment and ordering him to hand over to you the Consulate. He may refuse to do so, in which case you will open up a new Consulate and make it public through the press. Your position may be difficult somehow, but you will have my support ... It is most important to keep me informed ( and through me the Russian Soviets) of the Labour Movement in North Britain’. MacLean opened the new Consulate at 12 South Portland Street, Gorbals, Glasgow",

See more at: http://www.scottishrepublicansocialistmovement.org/pages/srsmjohnmacleanscottishrepublicansocialist.aspx#sthash.64I18TBo.dpuf

Congrats Buff

I guess you are probably the first Ukip supporter to share that link.

I didn't realise, until I read that, that John Maclean was born within a couple of miles of me- albeit a year or two earlier..

What would we give for a few John MacLeans now?

[eFestivals]

.......and the goalposts just got shifted right there.

Only if the SNP have published a different and new white paper today.

The SNP claim that the UK has been using it's power to economically exploit Scotland, and that Scotland has no meaningful power of its own within the UK.

Definition?

"an unequal human and territorial relationship"

If that's not a version of imperialism, I'm not sure that anything is.

[Buff124]

what I'm actually saying is this...

nationalist parties = UKIP and the SNP.

nationalist parties = anti-foreigner.

Now, if you understand politics as well you you like to believe, please do point out where those two things are wrong in reality.

Moving the goalposts over to an "support for independence is anti-imperialism" argument is a damn sight better than you saying that supporters of Scots independence are anti-foreigner (and again by implication anti-English) full stop.

Plenty of people on Scotland define themselves politically as socialists, internationalists and republicans. They also support independence for Scotland. Environmentalists, anarchists, people who support the "Occupy" and "Idle No More" movements, they are pro-independence too.

Quite happy to agree with your new stance that Scots independence can be framed within the struggle against (global) imperialism.

[LJS]

I said

Whether you intend it as such. I take it as a personal insult that because I am in favour of Independence for Scotland, I am somehow anti-English & some sort of closet racist.

Neil said

I've not said that nor even suggested it.

You are usually quite clever: dropping subtle hints that the SNP are are like Ukip,using similar tactics like fear of foreigners: and anyone who supports independence supports the SNP - so anyone who supports independence is racist

Only sometimes you state it just a wee bit too clearly

Meanwhile, stop showing your ignorance and instead do the tiniest bit of study to see why UKIP has that support - and you'll find it's almost identical to why you'll support the SNP by voting yes.

So, Neil why does Ukip have that support? - now I don't think its primarily because the EU have tampered with the great British sausage, I think its something a wee bit more sinister than that & I think you do too. & apparently it's "almost identical" to why I shall "support the SNP by voting yes.

Buff, Comfnumb, Myself (i hope) Barry Fish (even) have all been happy to have a bit of fun with this, have a laugh from time to time.Make our points. Listen to others. None of us, other than yourself have resorted to personal insult.

I think that is a shame.

Edited April 23, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

Now, care to point out to me some stuff from the yes campaign where the problems being mentioned are the result of what happens within Scotland? And then we can all walk away happy in the knowledge that we're all able to identify shite no matter where it might originate.

If you care to look at the yes campaign stuff, it's a lot more about the future than the past ( now you are still entitled to think that is bollocks) but they were smart enough to realise early on that it is more attractive & engaging to talk about what is good in the future they envisage than what is bad about the past.

Now in terms of the "problems" being the result of what happens within Scotland, well, let's think... this is about how Scotland is governed. For the past 307 years Scotland has been governed from Westminster. For 15 of these years we have had a Scottish Parliament with limited Powers. Most of us Scots are reasonably satisfied with what Holyrood has achieved. I think it is safe to say, we are less satisfied with what Westminster has achieved.

Now, in my assessment it is perfectly reasonable to say, being ruled from Westminster has not worked in the best interests (in the broadest sense) of Scotland.

The main problem in Scotland is that we didn't have the gumption to vote yes in 1979 - Oops sorry we did vote yes - It's just that Westminster installed a wee extra hurdle for us to get over. & maybe we believed the no campaign when they said - vote no & we'll give you better devolution ( they omitted to mention we would have to wait 18 years) You really wonder why some of us are slow to believe what the No campaign says now...Crying boys & wolves spring to mind.

To portray all this as England v Scotland is as simplistic as portraying Bonnie Prince Charlie as some heroic Scottish patriot. There have always been Scots on both sides as there are now. Some change sides. George Robertson (now Lord-the now traditional reward for years of struggling for the workers) famously supported devolution & said with his now familiar wisdom "" Devolution will kill Nationalism stone dead"

Good call, George!

Apparently he also " was involved with protests against US nuclear submarines docking in Britain" in his youth. Some say we all drift to the right as we get older, well, if that's the case I guess I have discovered some miraculous cure for ageing.

Edited April 23, 2014 by LJS