The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

I've just been mulling over some "what if"'s.

If Salmond had had dream fulfilment from sometime around the late 1990's, here's how things would very probably have gone.....

An independent Scotland would have joined the Euro, because Sterling was "a millstone around Scotland's neck".

Back then, it would have stood a decent chance of being able to hang onto it's financial centre, all within the country .... meaning its banking sector would be a far greater potential liability than it is today (because the assets were worth more, and since 2008 RBS has sold loads of assets).

And Salmond would have shouted "freedom" - for the bankers - because he did, to the right of tory nuLabour, with Salmond mimicking the English tories.

So the Scottish banks would have got themselves into even deeper shit than they did do.

And then it would have gone tits-up in 2008. How would that have gone?

Well, think of the austerity of Greece combined with the savings robbery in Cyprus, and I reckon you just about have it.

There's an interesting more-hypothetical which can logically and reasonably follow that, but it'll blow your mind and have me stupidly labelled project fear (just for daring to consider all possibilities )), so I ain't going to go there. But it ain't good.

no. 2 in an infinite (& pointless) series of what if's

What if Scotland had got Independence in the 1970's & had 30+ years of independence?

What if we had built up a big tartan oil fund like Norway?

What If oil had enabled us to build a more diverse economy that wasn't so dependent on financial services?

What If we had discovered vast untapped reserves of Jam in the Trossachs? (ooh painful!!!)

[Buff124]

Well how do you think Chávez got in to power?

He won an election, Russy. In 1998, with 56% of the vote. Then he won another election in 2001 with 59% of the vote, then he won in 2007 with 63% of the vote.

Contrast that electoral process of forming a government with an actual revolutionary government. Ukraine for instance. Did the electorate vote in the current government ? No, instead they had a revolution, and the current government is self-declared.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Buff124

[LJS]

Is it possible to vote for a revolution ?

To answer Stash's question about whether its possible to be a nationalist and an internationalist, trying reading "Frank Aiken:Nationalist & Internationalist" a biography of one of the Republic of Ireland's founding fathers. http://irishacademicpress.ie/product/frank-aiken-nationalist-and-internationalist/

The words National & Nationalist have been stolen by too many odious groups.

The OED has a couple of definitions

"A person who advocates political independence for a country"

that's ok, I don't mind that

It also has

"A person with strong patriotic feelings, especially one who believes in the superiority of their country over others"

That's why I don't describe myself as a Nationalist.

I think I'll be an Independista!

[Buff124]

Furthermore, the referendum in September is neither an election or a revolution. Its a referendum.

In the unlikely event of a Yes vote the the first iScotland election would take place in May 2016, and would probably be a more appropriate time for one of the contesting parties to use Neil's "together we can build Scotland" campaign slogan.

Hope that clears things up for you, my fine chap.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Buff124

[LJS]

Furthermore, the referendum in September is neither an election or a revolution. Its a referendum.

In the unlikely event of a Yes vote the the first iScotland election would take place in May 2016, and would probably be a more appropriate time for one of the contestanting parties to use Neil's "together we can build Scotland" campaign slogan.

Hope that clears things up for you, my fine chap.

It seems to be hard for a lot of people to get this point, Buff.

We will have a choice in 2016, & it means we won't have to have a cut in corporation tax if we don't want it, we may be able to vote to have our own currency, we might even be able to vote to keep Trident & we won't have to vote for Alex Salmond.

And surely to god we will get a more inspiring (&diverse) choice than Cameron, Clegg & Milliband

But its not even that, we'll still have a choice in Scotland when all of the above are dead & when you and me are dead.

[Comfy Bean]

I detect a common theme from the NO side of the debate that us Jocks blame everything that is " wrong " ??? on England.
Without going back over every single post ( I don`t have the strength ) I don`t recall anyone who has an interest in voting YES actually saying this however the flat earthers can hardly stop themselves from repeating it in post after post after post. Is this one of these campaigns where you think that if you say something negative often enough then everyone will start to believe it is actually true ?

Perhaps if we all spell it out one last time we can maybe all move on. I`llstart : I do NOT blame anything on England / The English and on the contrary feel a real affiliation with our brothers and sisters not only south of the border but around the world. We are grateful for the best wishes and support as we attempt to make our small corner of the planet a fairer and better place.

In other news, I see Patrick Harvie is due round my way next month on one of these question time like panels. Will look forward to hearing what the whole panel have to say and report back.

Edited April 24, 2014 by comfortablynumb1910

[Comfy Bean]

Furthermore, the referendum in September is neither an election or a revolution. Its a referendum.

In the unlikely event of a Yes vote the the first iScotland election would take place in May 2016, and would probably be a more appropriate time for one of the contesting parties to use Neil's "together we can build Scotland" campaign slogan.

Hope that clears things up for you, my fine chap.

Yip.

[russycarps]

He won an election, Russy. In 1998, with 56% of the vote. Then he won another election in 2001 with 59% of the vote, then he won in 2007 with 63% of the vote.

Contrast that electoral process of forming a government with an actual revolutionary government. Ukraine for instance. Did the electorate vote in the current government ? No, instead they had a revolution, and the current government is self-declared.

So you can vote for a revolution then.

It's an irrelevant point anyway, as the chances of scots wanting a bolivarian revolution is microscopic, judging by how they voted in the 2011 election. Despite you lot thinking you live in some kind of a left wing region of the UK

ps massive tax cuts for the rich is not a left wing policy

[LJS]

ps massive tax cuts for the rich is not a left wing policy

you are correct.

Jeremy Clarkson is unlikely to be appointed as UN secretary general

that is also true

Why are you telling us things we already know?

Have I missed something. has someone at any stage suggested either of the above statements are untrue?

Has anyone at any stage come out in support of massive tax cuts for the rich?

You will find, if you look back. that those of us supporting independence are happy to defend & discuss the things we have said.

[russycarps]

Has anyone at any stage come out in support of massive tax cuts for the rich?

Alex Salmond. The person who the supposedly left wing scottish public voted for more times than any other candidate.

[LJS]

Alex Salmond. The person who the supposedly left wing scottish public voted for more times than any other candidate.

sorry, have I missed alex's posts in this thread?

Oh, & for your information I have voted SNP a couple of times - but not living in Banff & Buchan ( or whatever his current constituency is called) I have never voted for Alex Salmond. Indeed very few Scots have.

How many times do we have to tell you? .. Its not about Salmond... It's not about the SNP

You are arguing in favour of the Union (as you are entitled to do) Ian Duncan Smith is arguing in favour of the Union. Does that mean I can accuse you of being in favour of all his welfare reforms?

[russycarps]

You did claim scotland is a left wing country did you not (or words to that effect). Voting patterns suggest otherwise.

I wish it were the case, then I'd move there myself. As it is, it's just the same as any other region of the uk - a mix.

[LJS]

You did claim scotland is a left wing country did you not (or words to that effect). Voting patterns suggest otherwise.

I wish it were the case, then I'd move there myself. As it is, it's just the same as any other region of the uk - a mix.

I'm not sure I said exactly that but I do think the consensus in Scotland is somewhere to the left of the UK as a whole. I have explaind my thinking a couple of times the most recent earlier tonight.

here

http://www.efestivals.co.uk/forums/topic/167463-the-dirty-independence-question/page-51#entry4319406

[LJS]

You did claim scotland is a left wing country did you not (or words to that effect). Voting patterns suggest otherwise.

I wish it were the case, then I'd move there myself. As it is, it's just the same as any other region of the uk - a mix.

... & by the way, we will be happy to welcome you to iScotland. I'm already saving a place by the fire for Barry Fish but i'm sure we can squeeze you in

I'm seeing a little fishy love in ... Salmond , Sturgeon, barry fish, Russy CARPs

Yeah, i know .... it's a load of Codswallop!!!

[LJS]

Today's first salvo from the UK sunshine campaign.

Ah, it's David Miliband. He's coming to see us today. Let's here what joy he brings...

""If Scotland was to separate from the rest of the UK, our country would be in a race to the bottom with the nationalists competing on lower tax rates for the top and lower wages or living standards for everyone else."

So is this a commitment that Scottish Labour won't be contesting the Scottish election in 2016? Or is he conceding defeat 2 years in advance?

I somehow think not. No he's trying the old trick of confusing a yes vote with a vote for the SNP & their policies.

Nice try David

[russycarps]

So you don't think the majority of people will be voting based on the contents the snp white paper?

lol

[LJS]

So you don't think the majority of people will be voting based on the contents the snp white paper?

lol

I have no idea. Do you?

[eFestivals]

I am no economist, so here's what one (PROFESSOR ANDREW HUGHES-HALLETT: Professor of Economics, University of St Andrews) says:

The RBS losses were caused by the purchase of a Dutch Bank, in a decision taken by Scotsmen in Edinburgh.

The RBS debt was 100% internally Scottish.

Scotland would have had to pay the bail out.

But hey, let's have Scotsmen revise history so that Scotsmen can con other Scotsmen with lies, and let's call that "sophisticated"

You have, terribly cleverly quoted Alex Salmond's enthusiasm for deregulation. Sadly he was far from alone. Tell me who was opposing it? Apparently the Tories wanted even more

PMSL ... Labour opposed loser regulation (tho what they had was still far far too lose), and Salmond was singing from the exact same tory script as raving right-winger John Redwood.

Yes, regulation was a fuck-up but it would have been a much bigger fuck up if Salmond or the tories had had their way.

A better type of politics? Nope, merely identical to Westminster - but without the advantages of a big nation.

[eFestivals]

Furthermore, the referendum in September is neither an election or a revolution. Its a referendum.

In the unlikely event of a Yes vote the the first iScotland election would take place in May 2016, and would probably be a more appropriate time for one of the contesting parties to use Neil's "together we can build Scotland" campaign slogan.

so what you're saying is that winning independence justifies Scotsmen lying to Scotsmen, because you'll put them straight after they've been conned and when they can't reverse the decision?

[eFestivals]

It seems to be hard for a lot of people to get this point, Buff.

And it seerms hard for you to get the point that yes is trying to win with lies.

Scotsmen lying to Scotsmen. That's "sophisticated", is it?

[eFestivals]

Alex Salmond. The person who the supposedly left wing scottish public voted for more times than any other candidate.

Alex Salmond - the man who was to the right of the tories about the banks in 2007.

[eFestivals]

I detect a common theme from the NO side of the debate that us Jocks blame everything that is " wrong " ??? on England.

it only takes listening to the Salmond to hear that as a fact.

[eFestivals]

Has anyone at any stage come out in support of massive tax cuts for the rich?

Yes, the SNP, and all supporters of the white paper.

What part don't you get? That's the vision you're supporting.

[eFestivals]

How many times do we have to tell you? .. Its not about Salmond... It's not about the SNP

and yet it's the SNP's campaign and white paper you're voting in support of.

If it's not about the SNP, while does every scotman refuse to nail them for their lies?

Edited April 25, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

... & by the way, we will be happy to welcome you to iScotland.

Only cos you want us to pay your pensions.