The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, LJS said:

A claim I have never made.

You brushed it off as conjecture, like things couldn't possibly happen in Scotland in the same way as they do in all other places.

8 minutes ago, LJS said:

Pretty much, mate. I don't deny that there are some b&s Nats about but they are relics of a bygone era. If they were significant, don't you think we might have seen a bit of a backlash when bastard English settlers robbed us of our Indy a couple of years back?

That poll says beyond all doubt that they're 'significant'. Some people in Scotland are 'true Scots' and the others are lesser.

It's victory that emboldens people, not being a loser. FFS.

You were quite happy to highlight *exactly* that taking place after the last vote. It won't be any different with an indy victory.

[Comfy Bean]

32 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I very deliberately said "revolves", to imply something different for you personally than adherence to 'blood and soil'.

I'm pointing out that whatever your personal feelings, it's a pertinent factor (tho often [even 'mostly'] unspoken) in the indy movement  supporters' motivations (as that polling clearly indicates), and therefore your own attachment to that indy movement is revolving round that 'blood and soil' whether you want to or not.
(we could argue about the extent, but it would be foolish to think it wholely absent)

And there's strong and logical reasons for why it's (vocalised) low level right now and is unlikely to remain that way if an indy vote were won. There's lesser reason currently to assert 'Scottishness' within Scottish politics, as 'Scottishness' is not the over-riding politics (due to Westminster holding sovereignty) ... but much like how the brexit vote has seen an emboldening of racist/xenophobic views, an indy vote is highly likely to see a similar emboldening of 'Scottishness', tho the harsh financial factors that come as a result of indy are likely to make it more-so in Scotland.

After all, when you'll have just won a vote 'for Scotland', the desire will be to improve the lot of Scots ... and with far less money to go round, those Scots who've voted for Scotland won't be keen to see Scotland's shrunk money paying for 'foreigners' at the expense of 'true Scots'.

You might wish to believe that indy people in Scotland think of anyone in Scotland as 'a Scot', yet that poll says that's just not true in the eyes of most Scots.

(and don't forget, it'll be all Scots that pressurise an indy govt, not merely 'indy supporting Scots' - so even if you wish to say that the 'blood and soil Scots' aren't any part of the indy movement so they must be the 'yoons', its still likely to have a strong effect within an indy Scotland).

As I say, I'm not suggesting anything different for Scotland with attitudes than might be the case elsewhere, but I am suggesting that the path you're wishing Scotland to take is one where this side of things will rear its ugly head much more-so than is the case right now.

It would be easy to shrug that off and say 'it ain't gonna happen', but that's the view most would probably have taken towards a rise in racism/xenophobia via a brexit vote.

It's food for thought. More thought about it right now and words and actions in advance to help counter it might be a good idea.

Had to read that twice. Quite insightful but I mean on how you view the world rather than anything about the prospects of Scotland being independent. I felt the same when you concluded that independence must be about flag waving and hating English folk.

There are of course eejits who support indy but nothing like the % that you seem to believe. Just like there are eejits who don`t support indy and compare the SNP to nazi`s etc. Again, they are a tiny minority. During the campaign someone threw an egg at the saviour, 2 blokes shouted at Ed Izzard and some union jack wavers chucked a couple of bottles in George sq. You seem to believe that Scotland was turned into a battle ground. It`s just not like that in reality. Last I read, the SNP are listening quietly and respectfully to the NO voters as we move forward. Why does this approach wind you up ?

Scottish politics will not be about "Scottishness" after indy, this is utter drivel. It will be about whether Scotland elects an SNP Govt to run our affairs or a resurgent Labour party. It`s quite simple and not driven by the hatred that seems to cloud your view on whats happening up here. You mention racism, xenophobia and brexit in your post while totally disregarding that all 32 counts up here voted remain ? You also used to bang on about walls and gun towers after our vote. I note " we " are building one such wall as we speak 

Your ongoing and continuous jibes that Scots seem to think they are somehow better than everyone else is quite bizarre. Again it seems to be a personal thing with you. We are now having to support Wales in footy tournaments due to being rubbish at our national sport. It`s a shite state of affairs.  

 

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Scottish politics will not be about "Scottishness" after indy, this is utter drivel.

so indy isn't about Scotland running Scotland?

It cannot be other than about an increased Scottishness.

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

It`s quite simple and not driven by the hatred that seems to cloud your view on whats happening up here.

do you think brexit was driven by hatred?

If so, what makes the British driven by hatred around an increased political nationalism but not Scots?

And if not, why has the result of the vote caused an increase in hate crimes?

I'm not trying to label anything about Scotland as worse, I'm pointing out that it's subject to all of the same effects from a victory of political nationalism.

You can choose to brush it off now if you like, but if you get that victory you won't be able to brush off the consequences that will come along with it.

It's now being said around the brexit vote that people should have anticipated that violent effect that would come with it. You're saying there's no need for Scotland to anticipate anything similar - which can only be because you believe Scotland is somehow intrinsically better.

So, what is it? Are you blood and soil cos Scotland is intrinsically better?

Or are you sane enough to recognise that Scotland is not intrinsically better and therefore will be subject to similar effect from nationalist victory?

(there's a third option, but I'm hoping that you're not just stupidly and irredemably thick).

[Comfy Bean]

21 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

That poll says beyond all doubt that they're 'significant'. Some people in Scotland are 'true Scots' and the others are lesser.

 

" That poll says beyond all doubt ".....Really ?

Anyway, have just clicked on your link to the poll for the first time. You are getting really desperate if you are somehow concluding ( again ) the blood, soil, hatred of the other stuff from this poll.

On my reading, it`s concluded that if I move to Brazil tomorrow then in 10 years time people will still view me as Scottish and not Brazilian ...who knew 

You are scraping the bottom of a well scraped barrel trying to turn this poll into some kind of stick. Desperate scenes.

[Comfy Bean]

10 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

so indy isn't about Scotland running Scotland?

 

Poor response. That is not what I said as you know. We have been discussing this subject for years. The picture you are trying hard to paint of what the political landscape will be in Scotland differs wildly from my experience / belief. You are entitled to your opinion, whatever you are basing it on. I have acknowledged countless times that there are idiots on both sides of the argument but they are the minority.

[Comfy Bean]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

do you think brexit was driven by hatred?

If so, what makes the British driven by hatred around an increased political nationalism but not Scots?

 

No I don`t. More likely fear and even more likely a combination of a whole range of factors. I also don`t think supporting independence for Scotland is driven by hatred. I may have mentioned this before.

I realise we disagree on all this but it`s all about opinions. Just because I disagree with your position on everything being driven by hatred doesn`t make me a brainless moron as you often claim 

[Comfy Bean]

13 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

Or are you sane enough to recognise that Scotland is not intrinsically better and therefore will be subject to similar effect from nationalist victory?

 

Here you go with this " sane " again ?!

I see you are going with the old switcheroo trick yet again.

YOU said Scots think they are intrinsically better so why are you now posing me this question ? You have made this claim dozens of times although you usually go with Scottish exceptionalism. 

I have never once claimed Scotland is " better " than anyone as obviously this would be idiotic.

I think politically we are in a union with a bigger partner, half of whom vote Tory or UKIP while Scotland returns 1 Tory MP and none from UKIP.  We also know where this partnership has left us with the EU.

I`d have been happier with the SNP or Labour Govts that Scotland would elect and I voted to remain in the EU as did all 32 Scottish counts. I also accept that you don`t recognise " Scotland " in these matters as it`s not a real Country or whatever.

 

 

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

" That poll says beyond all doubt ".....Really ?

Yes it does.

You're welcome to try and find a poll that says something different beyond all doubt if you can, but I doubt you can.

 

13 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Anyway, have just clicked on your link to the poll for the first time. You are getting really desperate if you are somehow concluding ( again ) the blood, soil, hatred of the other stuff from this poll.

On my reading, it`s concluded that if I move to Brazil tomorrow then in 10 years time people will still view me as Scottish and not Brazilian ...who knew 

You are scraping the bottom of a well scraped barrel trying to turn this poll into some kind of stick. Desperate scenes.

Do you think all people in Brazil should have identical rights no matter where their origin? Perhaps you do.

But I'll point out that under the SNP's indy white paper, not everyone in Scotland would have had the same rights no matter where their origin. It very specially said that foreigners would have lesser rights. That's special privileges for those who class as Scottish, and something lesser for those who don't.

(That's no different to just about every other version of nation and nationality - so i'll point out again I'm not saying anything different of Scotland to anywhere else)

That's about 'more' of Scottish resources for 'true Scots', and 'less' for 'others'.

And in a resource-damaged indy Scotland with £10bn a year less to spend on all people in Scotland, that will result in a loud demand for Scottish money to be spent on Scottish people and not non-Scottish people, in much the same way that kippers have denigrated 'foreigners' for the greater advantage of Brits.

Without the financial pressures the loudness would be around the equivalent of kipper noise - loud, but not overwhelming. Take out that £10bn barnett money tho, and it's a whole new ball game.

 

 

[eFestivals]

25 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

No I don`t. More likely fear and even more likely a combination of a whole range of factors. I also don`t think supporting independence for Scotland is driven by hatred. I may have mentioned this before.

I realise we disagree on all this but it`s all about opinions. Just because I disagree with your position on everything being driven by hatred doesn`t make me a brainless moron as you often claim 

So, brexit wasn't driven by hatred, yet it's caused hatred to be expressed to a significantly greater extent.

And indy isn't driven by hatred either ... but they'll be nothing of the same? Really?

I'm pointing out that much the same will happen in Scotland via a same victory for political nationalism.
I'm pointing out that action in advance (which the UK now realises it should have taken) is the right thing to be doing.

And you and LJS say "there's no need. Scotland is different" - and when you say "Scotland is different" you prove the very point that drives the hatred.

[eFestivals]

38 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Poor response. That is not what I said as you know. We have been discussing this subject for years. The picture you are trying hard to paint of what the political landscape will be in Scotland differs wildly from my experience / belief. You are entitled to your opinion, whatever you are basing it on. I have acknowledged countless times that there are idiots on both sides of the argument but they are the minority.

Did you miss the bit where the UK's political classes were shocked to discover that opinions are markedly different from what they wanted to believe before the vote?

The opinions shown in that poll also show the same about Scotland.

[Comfy Bean]

35 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

It's now being said around the brexit vote that people should have anticipated that violent effect that would come with it. You're saying there's no need for Scotland to anticipate anything similar - which can only be because you believe Scotland is somehow intrinsically better.

 

This prompted me to have a look at what is actually being said about the Brexit vote. So, not some stuff made up by me, I mean what is being said by the influential think tank the Electoral Reform Society. I have even included a Telegraph link ( apologies ) to hopefully dodge accusations of quoting a biased press etc.

Thought this bit summed up the point I was making about the picture you attempt to paint about how it was all about hatred etc during the indy ref. I realise you will totally disregard these findings but thought it was worth posting as I hadn`t seen it until now.....

 

Overall the Society concluded that the EU referendum debate was dogged by “glaring democratic deficiencies” that left voters feeling “ill-informed” and disengaged.

The Society said its findings show there is a need for a “root and branch review” of how future referendums are carried out.

Katie Ghose, chief executive of the society, said: “This report shows without a shadow of a doubt just how dire the EU referendum debate really was.

“There were glaring democratic deficiencies in the run-up to the vote, with the public feeling totally ill-informed.

“Both sides were viewed as highly negative by voters, while the top-down, personality-based nature of the debate failed to address major policies and issues, leaving the public in the dark.

“It offered a stark contrast to the vibrant, well-informed, grass roots conversation of the Scottish independence vote - a referendum that left a lasting legacy of ongoing public participation in politics and public life.”

The Society called for a “root and branch review of referendums, learning the lessons of the EU campaign to make sure the mistakes that were made in terms of regulation, tone and conduct are never repeated”.

Recommendations included tasking an official public body to intervene when misleading claims are made by the campaigns, and extending the vote to 16 year olds.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/31/david-cameron-and-jeremy-corbyn-made-more-people-vote-leave-at-e/

[eFestivals]

30 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

“It offered a stark contrast to the vibrant, well-informed, grass roots conversation of the Scottish independence vote - a referendum that left a lasting legacy of ongoing public participation in politics and public life.”

so well informed you believed the SNP oil claims?

(and you certainly did believe them - everything that's been exposed since was stuff I said and stuff you denied at the time).

It was no less bullshit than anything else from politicians, the only difference is that most indynuts were sucked with the politicians bullshit while few brexiters were.

And today? Well, you're so well informed you deny that GERS has any relevance for indy Scotland (despite both the SNP and you stating it proved the economic viability of indy in 2014), and you also believe that £10bn will fall from the sky.

Self-confirming your delusions doesn't stop them being delusions.

Edited September 9, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

so well informed you believed the SNP oil claims?

(and you certainly did believe them - everything that's been exposed since was stuff I said and stuff you denied at the time).

It was no less bullshit than anything else from politicians, the only difference is that most indynuts were sucked with the politicians bullshit while few brexiters were.

And today? Well, you're so well informed you deny that GERS has any relevance for indy Scotland (despite both the SNP and you stating it proved the economic viability of indy in 2014), and you also believe that £10bn will fall from the sky.

Self-confirming your delusions doesn't stop them being delusions.

Fantastic posts from Comfy today, effortlessly dismantling your ridiculous argument.

As regards the respective referenda, if you can't spot the difference in tone between the leave campaign & yes Scotland, then you are a bigger fool than you think I am.

Of course if in indyref2 the yes side runs a campaign implying that our way of life is under threat from swarms of English migrants, we might see the sort of backlash you seem to be predicting. 

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, LJS said:

Fantastic posts from Comfy today, effortlessly dismantling your ridiculous argument.

Oh, effortless ... just like you're doing, by playing the man and pretending there's not a huge number of awkward facts.

 

1 minute ago, LJS said:

As regards the respective referenda, if you can't spot the difference in tone between the leave campaign & yes Scotland, then you are a bigger fool than you think I am.

Who said there wasn't a different tone? Not me. It doesn't mean that different coloured car has anything different under the bonnet tho.

Lies are lies - and so always negative - and whether you perceive them as positive or negative is down to fantasy or not. And the oil revenue* claims were lies - a hugely positive one for idjuts of course because it made their dream falsely viable and not a disaster waiting to happen.

*</cue words from the brainless who respond talking about the oil price>

Etc, etc, etc. I won't bother going there again.

And if it's caused such a positive effect on Scotland's population, how come, even today, you believe £10bn will fall from the sky?

 

1 minute ago, LJS said:

Of course if in indyref2 the yes side runs a campaign implying that our way of life is under threat from swarms of English migrants, we might see the sort of backlash you seem to be predicting. 

I'm pointing out that following a successful indyref2 it won't need a campaign to point anything out to anyone.

Your bank balance and situation will point out to you daily that money which could be spent on Scots was being spent on others, and while you personally might not react to that (you'll probably still try and claim it as Westminster's fault ) plenty of others in Scotland very definitely will do.

[LJS]

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Oh, effortless ... just like you're doing, by playing the man and pretending there's not a huge number of awkward facts.

 

Who said there wasn't a different tone? Not me. It doesn't mean that different coloured car has anything different under the bonnet tho.

Just as it doesn't mean it has the same under the bonnet. A meaningless argument.

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Lies are lies - and so always negative - and whether you perceive them as positive or negative is down to fantasy or not. And the oil revenue* claims were lies - a hugely positive one for idjuts of course because it made their dream falsely viable and not a disaster waiting to happen.

My point had nothing to do with oil revenues. It was to do with the racist subplot to much of the leave campaign which has always been missing from the campaign for Scottish Indy.

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

*</cue words from the brainless who respond talking about the oil price>

Etc, etc, etc. I won't bother going there again.

Good. You may have forgotten my recent  analysis of Scotland's onshore economy.

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

And if it's caused such a positive effect on Scotland's population, how come, even today, you believe £10bn will fall from the sky?

Cos it's a Scottish sky & therefore exceptional.

7 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

I'm pointing out that following a successful indyref2 it won't need a campaign to point anything out to anyone.

Your bank balance and situation will point out to you daily that money which could be spent on Scots was being spent on others, and while you personally might not react to that (you'll probably still try and claim it as Westminster's fault ) plenty of others in Scotland very definitely will do.

Leaving aside the massive and unproven assumption on which your point is based, there is no evidence in support of your prediction...definitely.

P.s. your casual interchanging of Scotland (the nation) & Scottish (the nationality) is a crude and rather pathetic ploy to try and misrepresent the whole tone of the argument for independence.

P.p.s the correct spelling is "eejit" not "idjut" 

[Comfy Bean]

4 hours ago, eFestivals said:

Yes it does.

You're welcome to try and find a poll that says something different beyond all doubt if you can, but I doubt you can.

 

I think you are missing my point. I will not be able to find a poll that says anything " beyond all doubt ". Apart from the fact you are trying to run with this poll saying something totally different to what it concluded, it has a sample size of 1039. 

You extrapolating this poll to claim it proves anything beyond all doubt isn`t really how polling works....in my opinion.

As I said earlier, the claims you are making about this poll don`t stand up either - see my Brazilian example. Your view on events up here isn`t based on facts but who was surprised when you dismissed out of hand the report from the think tank folks I linked to earlier. You`d rather bang on about money falling from the sky, hatred, bigotry etc.

[eFestivals]

47 minutes ago, LJS said:

Just as it doesn't mean it has the same under the bonnet. A meaningless argument.

The lies can be pointed at. It was there, so not a meaningless argument.

 

Quote

Leaving aside the massive and unproven assumption on which your point is based, there is no evidence in support of your prediction...definitely.

There's countless evidence of victories of political nationalism leading to nationalist violence.

You'd be hard-pushed to find instances where it didn't.

 

Quote

P.s. your casual interchanging of Scotland (the nation) & Scottish (the nationality) is a crude and rather pathetic ploy to try and misrepresent the whole tone of the argument for independence.

sorry? WTF are you on about?

Paranoid, much?

I guess it's one way of throwing off the things you can't face up too.

Edited September 9, 2016 by eFestivals

[LJS]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

The lies can be pointed at. It was there, so not a meaningless argument.

Your changing the subject again. No one is suggesting the lies in the brexit campaign led to the nasty surge in hate crimes after the result, it was the racist undertones & anti immigration rhetoric. We have experienced virtually none of that up here (& interstingly, no spike in hate crimes)

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

There's countless evidence of victories of political nationalism leading to nationalist violence.

You'd be hard-pushed to find instances where it didn't.

Much of the former bits of the Soviet Union & Warsaw pact I would suggest. Many other nationalist movements are much more ethnically based, which despite all your wild claims the Scottish movement isn't.

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

sorry? WTF are you on about?

Paranoid, much?

I guess it's one way of throwing off the things you can't face up too.

Not at all Neil, pointing out your failure to realise that blood & soil play no significant part in the movement for Scottish Indy. Funnily enough your yogic poll showed many no voters considered themselves "Scottish not British" or "more Scottish than British" while plenty of yes voters were "equally Scottish & British"

I think you need to come up here & let comfy & me take you out & meet some real folk. Not the btl weirdos you seem to base your perception on.

[eFestivals]

14 hours ago, LJS said:

Your changing the subject again. No one is suggesting the lies in the brexit campaign led to the nasty surge in hate crimes after the result, it was the racist undertones & anti immigration rhetoric. We have experienced virtually none of that up here (& interstingly, no spike in hate crimes)

really? I seem to remember you posting your disgust at the violent actions that a victory for political nationalism caused in Scotland.

Tho of course you don't count that as anything done by Scots, do you? You say that was done by the nasty foreigners in your country.

Yep, no blood and soil here.

[eFestivals]

14 hours ago, LJS said:

Much of the former bits of the Soviet Union & Warsaw pact I would suggest.

you seen to forgetting stuff like the public murders broadcast on TV.

[eFestivals]

14 hours ago, LJS said:

Not at all Neil, pointing out your failure to realise that blood & soil play no significant part in the movement for Scottish Indy. Funnily enough your yogic poll showed many no voters considered themselves "Scottish not British" or "more Scottish than British" while plenty of yes voters were "equally Scottish & British"

I think you need to come up here & let comfy & me take you out & meet some real folk. Not the btl weirdos you seem to base your perception on.

Yep, there's no blood and soil in a poll based - literally - on blood and soil.

[LJS]

39 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

really? I seem to remember you posting your disgust at the violent actions that a victory for political nationalism caused in Scotland.

Tho of course you don't count that as anything done by Scots, do you? You say that was done by the nasty foreigners in your country.

Yep, no blood and soil here.

Wot you on about? 

The only thing I can think of that vaguely fits your description is the violence from loyalist thugs in George square, Glasgow after indyref. Whilst I certainly deplored it I was clear that these people were not representative of no voters and it was a one-off and certainly not a trend.

Edited September 10, 2016 by LJS

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, LJS said:

Wot you on about? 

The only thing I can think of that vaguely fits your description is the violence from loyalist thugs in George square, Glasgow after indyref. Whilst I certainly deplored it I was clear that these people were not representative of no voters and it was a one-off and certainly not a trend.

and the violent brexiters aren't typical of brexit voters - but it's still there, happening.

It's what nationalism does.

I'm pointing out - particularly in light of what that poll is saying - that it will be no different with an indy victory in Scotland, tho with the added pressure onto it of Scotland being in the financial shit and huge cuts having to be made.

Where do you think those newly-sovereign Scots will say the cuts should fall? On themselves, on the newly empowered Scots? Or might they want to exert their new power to (try to) protect themselves?

[LJS]

37 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Yep, there's no blood and soil in a poll based - literally - on blood and soil.

The poll is a bit of fun. Having opinions on what makes you Scottish does not translate to having opinions that being Scottish is better than being anywhere else is. 

Interestingly, if you study the tables, yes voters tend to be slightly more open-minded about the definition of scottishness. So if you wanted to draw any conclusion from a pretty meaningless poll. It would be that those who favour maintaining the union are more into blood & soil than us nasty nats.

Me?  I wouldn't draw any conclusions at all from it other than that a majority of Scots see themselves as predominantly Scottish which presumably means we believe Scotland is a real country.