The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

Yeah because you plan on leaving it to the rest of the UK to worry about... Even if you get your phoney "independence"...

Another big issues shunned... Scots seem good at that

Any particular reason, Barry, why iScotland should spend more than say, Norway or Ireland?

[kaosmark2]

Any particular reason, Barry, why iScotland should spend more than say, Norway or Ireland?

And why should the UK have its current high spend? The answer is politicians, and they're not going to be different in iScotland.

[LJS]

And why should the UK have its current high spend? The answer is politicians, and they're not going to be different in iScotland.

And they are different in Norway, Ireland and every other European country that spends less than the UK?

[kaosmark2]

And they are different in Norway, Ireland and every other European country that spends less than the UK?

Yes. And their public is. Different attitudes, different desires over taxation, different media exposure, different history. Scotland isn't anywhere near as different to the rest of the UK as the rest of Europe.

[eFestivals]

Of the European members of nato only the UK, France & Estonia(!) spend over 2% of GDP

Looking at countries with a lot of sea & air, Norway comes in at 1.4% & Ireland at 0.56%

Spain astonishingly comes in at 0.85%.

The two countries most recently admitted countries (Albania & Croatia) spend 0.8% & 1.9% respectively.

So, I think it is fair to assume Scotland can save a few quid here.

For me defence spending is well down my list of priorities.

edit: oops forgot this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

and the UK is 2.3% - not so much different.

It's a big hit on Scotland when it has to do 50% of the same things with 9% of the money. What's going to get cut to pay for it?

[eFestivals]

Any particular reason, Barry, why iScotland should spend more than say, Norway or Ireland?

Firstly: that the cuts to get it to that level will have Scots screaming in the streets about how unfair it is that they're losing their jobs/security/vital resources/the very centre of their communities.

Or will those bases happily close? I seem to remember a lot of noise about the recent closures.

[LJS]

And you think the result of independence will be some party winning by proposing to raise taxation ?

Do you think you are going to change the number of businesses looking to invest into Scotland by raising taxation ?

So you truly think you can survive off oil and whisky alone ?

Come on You know the way this will go... or at least you should do...

iScotland's future is more right than the UK... Low taxation, whoring out to business, and tough approach to benefits... Sound familiar ? Its all in the white paper, you just need to read between the lines

Barry, Barry, Barry, you don't get it do you?

This is not an election campaign to decide who governs Scotland in 2016. The No campaign love to portray it that way because that way they can attack their opponent's (SNP) manifesto (white paper) without having to produce a manifesto of their own.

And if we do get an SNP government in 2016 & they do cut corporation tax, that won't even be the end of the world because we'll get to pick another government a few years down the line and again and again and again long after Alex is dead & gone.

I don't know how many times we have to explain this to you

[eFestivals]

And they are different in Norway, Ireland and every other European country that spends less than the UK?

as we're talking def3nce....

Do you think rUK warships will continue to be built on the Clyde, or have you wised up to the EU rules for these sorts of things yet?

[LJS]

Firstly: that the cuts to get it to that level will have Scots screaming in the streets about how unfair it is that they're losing their jobs/security/vital resources/the very centre of their communities.

Or will those bases happily close? I seem to remember a lot of noise about the recent closures.

do you know what percentage of UK defence spending is actually spent in Scotland?

I think you will find these figures are not published.

Edited May 7, 2014 by LJS

[eFestivals]

don you know what percentage of UK defence spending is actually spent in Scotland?

I think you will find these figures are not published.

Ahhh, that wonderful whataboutery that the kids love so much. That's not any relevant point to what I said.

The relevant point is what does iScotland propose. And it proposes to close much of what remains. It has to. It can't afford to do differently if it sticks to what it says it will do.

Edited May 7, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

I think I understand that... but the bit you don't get is the direct consequences of independence.... The political landscape will change forever because it will have to... You simply will see the rise of right thinking. Its an outcome that can not possibly be avoided!

Is there a single political message out there that is radically different than the SNPs vision for Scotland ? Is Labour proposing anything different ? Of course not...

iScotland have an incredibly good deal as it stands it seems to and Englander looking in... I would love no tuition fees, free prescriptions etc...

Barry I have to hand it to you yet again - there have been numerous arguments put forward against Independence - but the "rise of right thinking!" - that's a first - I suggest you get straight onto Better together - it's a scare story even they hadn't thought of!!

As for Labour or anyone else proposing anything different - None of the 3 main UK parties are prepared to state what they would campaign for in an iScotland for fear of giving credence to the Yes campaign. I have written at length of my hopes for Scottish Labour in an independent Scotland - I shan't bore you by repeating myself.

And as for the great deal - we only got these things once we got our own parliament - the Barnett formula which sets the amount of funding scotland gets pre dated devolution by about 20 years - God knows what a happened to the money before 1999

[LJS]

Ahhh, that wonderful whataboutery that the kids love so much. That's not any relevant point to what I said.

The relevant point is what does iScotland propose. And it proposes to close much of what remains. It has to. It can't afford to do differently if it sticks to what it says it will do.

As at 1 July 2013, there were over 11,100

Regular Armed Forces (7.5 per cent of the UK total) and 4,000 MOD civilian personnel (7.6 per

cent of the UK total)7

, from across the UK and beyond, at around 50 MOD sites throughout

Scotland,

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/248654/Scotland_analysis_Defence_paper-FINAL.pdf

So we get less than our fair share of jobs.

In addition, where do you think all the Highest paid MOD employees both military & civilian are based. Is it perhaps predominantly London? - & we will be paying our share of their wages.

Now, don't get me wrong, like all these things, disentangling who pays for what & who gets what is not an exact science but, I would certainly argue that to say Scotland will have to spend more & still lose jobs is a tough case to make.

Good Luck

[Buff124]

iScotland have an incredibly good deal as it stands it seems to and Englander looking in... I would love no tuition fees, free prescriptions etc...

Devolution's success would seem to be an argument in favour of more of it, yes ?

[eFestivals]

And as for the great deal - we only got these things once we got our own parliament - the Barnett formula which sets the amount of funding scotland gets pre dated devolution by about 20 years - God knows what a happened to the money before 1999

Perhaps Scotland hasn't been pumping jam for as long as the claims?

It's certainly the case that the finances were fattened out during the 2000's with banking profits (all of Lloyds & RBS revenue is counted as Scottish) during that banking boom, and now those have disappeared so has Scotland paying in more than it's getting out - and what happens with the banks post-independence makes a massive difference to whether iScotland has to shaft all those people who thought they were voting for jam. ... and given that all of standard banking practice, currency, EU rules, and sustainability are all against iScotland here, it ain't looking good.

Will other yes-ers get nearer the truth and tell their fellow Scots that there's no jam? Nope, they'll be happy to lie to them if they'll vote yes.

And that's what stinks.

[LJS]

Ahhh, that wonderful whataboutery that the kids love so much. That's not any relevant point to what I said.

The relevant point is what does iScotland propose. And it proposes to close much of what remains. It has to. It can't afford to do differently if it sticks to what it says it will do.

I can't find that proposal

can h you help me?

[eFestivals]

So we get less than our fair share of jobs.

careful, you'll have Boris thinking you're from Merseyside. ;rolleyes:

It might occur to the thinking man that there's forces at sea, forces in the Falklands and other off-shore territories, bases in Germany & Cyprus (& Gib & elsewhere?), plus I think a carload (no more than that tho ) drove to Afghanistan.

But no, let's say instead that those outsiders have shafted us - that'll get the votes.

What's that? The SNP are nothing like UKIP?

In addition, where do you think all the Highest paid MOD employees both military & civilian are based. Is it perhaps predominantly London? - & we will be paying our share of their wages.

very true*, but that's too insignificant to count - and a proportionate number will be on iScotland's payroll (or iScotland will have to pay them off)**.

* there's over 40 Admirals for around 20 warships. It's taking the piss.

** or a contra-deal will be done in the negotiations. The point is that a proportion will be at iScotland's cost somewhere.

[Buff124]

. ... and given that all of standard banking practice, currency, EU rules, and sustainability are all against iScotland here, it ain't looking good.

Will other yes-ers get nearer the truth and tell their fellow Scots that there's no jam? Nope, they'll be happy to lie to them if they'll vote yes.

And that's what stinks.

Now, now... a few days ago you were arguing that a hypothetical iScotland was being greedy by not wanting to share. Can't have it both ways.

[eFestivals]

I can't find that proposal

can h you help me?

The maths is simple. Less budget equals less assets/resources can be supported.

But there's detail in the white paper about Naval stuff, and smaller numbers of personnel than is proportional in the defence forces.

PS: the yes-ers say "and no more of Scotland's talent dying in foreign wars". Yeah? So iScoland ill pass a law to stop Scottish citizens joining the rUK forces will they? Half the British army is Scottish.

[eFestivals]

Now, now... a few days ago you were arguing that a hypothetical iScotland was being greedy by not wanting to share. Can't have it both ways.

it's true, you don't want to share. McCrone was spot on.

The fact that you're spending more than you contribute (including oil) is a fact, but a very inconvenient one.

So in this case, yes I can have it both ways. It's iScotland that can't.

[LJS]

I think this sums up how little post-independence you guys are actually doing. If you think when you have to make decisions on things like defence, taxation and welfare this isn't going to see a rise in right thinking I think you are kidding yourselves....

We've been making these decisions for years - remember we get to vote in UK elections just now.

we have one Tory MP & UKIP have never won a thing. The other right wing parties, that have flourished (a little) from time to time in England - BNP EDL etc, have barely been a blip on the Scottish radar.

We have had Scottish Socialist MSP's at Holyrood.

Now things may change & nothing is certain - but your view is very much a minority one.

We will have more because we have a fairer voting system & you can believe what you want for whatever bizarre reasons you want

[LJS]

it's true, you don't want to share. McCrone was spot on.

The fact that you're spending more than you contribute (including oil) is a fact, but a very inconvenient one.

So in this case, yes I can have it both ways. It's iScotland that can't.

as previously stated we are all paying more than we contribute - it's called a deficit. Funnily enough this second part is often missed out for some reason.

You say Scotland's deficit is larger per capita than the rest of the UK - others disagree.

[LJS]

PS: the yes-ers say "and no more of Scotland's talent dying in foreign wars". Yeah? So iScoland ill pass a law to stop Scottish citizens joining the rUK forces will they? Half the British army is Scottish.

you are being silly now

[LJS]

The maths is simple. Less budget equals less assets/resources can be supported.

But there's detail in the white paper about Naval stuff, and smaller numbers of personnel than is proportional in the defence forces.

PS: the yes-ers say "and no more of Scotland's talent dying in foreign wars". Yeah? So iScoland ill pass a law to stop Scottish citizens joining the rUK forces will they? Half the British army is Scottish.

here's what yes Scotland says

We know that Scotland contributes around £3.3 billion to defence spending in the UK, but only about £2 billion is spent in Scotland. So a budget of between £2 billion and £3.3 billion means an increase in defence and security spending in Scotland, but also additional money to spend on other public services. This would also put Scotland’s defence budget at a similar level to other countries like Denmark who have played important roles in international missions in places such as Libya.

& The precise make-up of the forces would be a matter for whichever party was elected to form a Scottish government to decide.

[LJS]

Its madness how you are going to sleep walk into this...

its not madness...

this is madness

& we're not sleepwalking we are wide awake

[LJS]

What is Scotland going to do when they are flooded by UK immigrants if it all works out well

parts of the Highlands & Islands of Scotland have been "flooded" with UK immigrants for years. Indeed some communities have been kept going by such folk.

Like all other parts of the Uk we have been welcoming immigrants for years - from Ireland, from Italy, from Poland during the second World war from Pakistan (now Bangladesh) and many other places. We're not by any means perfect & I have had occasions to challenge & confront racism on a number of occasions. But on the whole we are a welcoming people - we love meeting new people & sharing a drink & some stories with them.

And contrary to popular myth, we don't really hate the English - as long as you are not playing football

You will be required of course to sit a citizenship test - but it will be more practical than the UK one. Details have not been finalized but it is believed it will involve Buckfast, Tunnock's tea cakes & a deep fried mars bar.

Edited May 7, 2014 by LJS