The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

Presumably that 1980 SNP estimate of the oil is no better than the 2014 SNP estimate of the oil.

Given what the oil price is today and how much that returns, and given the much lower oil price back then, and given that the oil was barely flowing in 1980, I think it's safe to say that 1980 estimate by the SNP was total bollocks... or they're also able to find buyers who'll pay over the market price.

do you really think we can't read?

McCrone basically says the SNP were right - if there is another interpretation i'd love to hear it.

[eFestivals]

Ahh so when you said "McCrone said the Scottish couldn't be trusted to play fair if they knew the true oil value." w

hich as far as i can tell is quite simply a lie: that was a case of the end justifying the means.

I really would prefer not to have to go away & read fairly dull reports to check if you are telling the truth or just making things up to support your argument.

time for your old friend I think

The only thing I've made up is the exact wording I've used to give you McCrone's conclusions.

Why do YOU think he recommended that Scotland be kept uninformed about the value of the oil?

FFS, If you're having difficulty with something as simple and as straightforwards as this, how the feck are you managing with the far more complex aspects of indy?

Edited May 13, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

do you really think we can't read?

McCrone basically says the SNP were right - if there is another interpretation i'd love to hear it.

Nope, not a jot of it. McCrone merely said there was a lot of oil. He didn't invent some numbers for how much, he used the available info.

The SNP said there was a lot more oil than there was. You know, the whole theme they've used for over 30 years to get to now, and which they're still telling porkies about to try and win the vote.

McCrone said "There's XYZ amount of oil. If you tell Scotland how much oil there is, Scotland will demand it all for itself".

And he was right.

[LJS]

The only thing I've made up is the exact wording I've used to give you McCrone's conclusions.

Why do YOU think he recommended that Scotland be kept uninformed about the value of the oil?

FFS, If you're having difficulty with something as simple and as straightforwards as this, how the feck are you managing with the far more complex aspects of indy?

Can't find where he said that. I must admit to skimming over some of his report. So I'll be happy to stand corrected if you can point to where he said it.

[eFestivals]

Can't find where he said that. I must admit to skimming over some of his report. So I'll be happy to stand corrected if you can point to where he said it.

have an easy-to-read summary of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCrone_report

[LJS]

have an easy-to-read summary of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCrone_report

thank you, Neil. you are too kind.

still don't see the stuff you are on about. different people can of course interpret things differently though.

it's a lovely sunny day here. I do hope it's the same where you are.

[eFestivals]

still don't see the stuff you are on about. different people can of course interpret things differently though.

Eh?

McCrone said an independent Scotland would be rich. He said that needed to be kept secret, "taking the wind out of the SNP’s sails".

What would the SNP have done with full sails? Exactly as they're doing right now - claiming the oil guarantees an iScotland a bright future, and therefore Scotland should be independent.

It's not like the dots are hard to join up.

[LJS]

Eh?

McCrone said an independent Scotland would be rich. He said that needed to be kept secret, "taking the wind out of the SNPs sails".

What would the SNP have done with full sails? Exactly as they're doing right now - claiming the oil guarantees an iScotland a bright future, and therefore Scotland should be independent.

It's not like the dots are hard to join up.

Other dot arrangements are available

[eFestivals]

Other dot arrangements are available

fantasies are always available.

[LJS]

fantasies are always available.

Whatever...

The central point is they lied because they were scared of the Scots voting for independence.

Nothing has changed.

[eFestivals]

The central point is they lied because they were scared of the Scots voting for independence.

Pretty much, tho back then the SNP were pretty much a nothing. I think it was more about how it would give them a significant boost rather than give them enough of a boost to get immediately to indy.

The real point was that Scots would demand the money, not specifically-independence (tho of course, independence also equals Scotland having the money).

And as I keep on pointing out: that conclusion was dead right.

McCrone doesn't prove anything against Westminster - Westminster's job is to act in the best interests of all of the UK, which it did - it proves something against Scotland. That Scotland is greedy!

[Buff124]

Suppresion of information that should have been in the public domain was the option taken at the time. Suppressing the McCrone report was a contributing factor in the failure to establish an oil fund for the whole United Kingdom. If a UK oil fund had been established, the earlier lie would then have been exposed.

That displays a surprising level of fear, and makes me wonder - what is it about an independent Scotland successive UK Govts were/are so scared of ?

[Buff124]

What's with the fear , Neil ?

[eFestivals]

Suppresion of information that should have been in the public domain was the option taken at the time.

why "should" it have been in the public domain?

Sometimes, some things are best left unsaid because of the consequences that might come from it.... and from the point of view of every citizen of this country and not just a small segment of them, not allowing that segment to steal it all for themselves was the right option.

Suppressing the McCrone report was a contributing factor in the failure to establish an oil fund for the whole United Kingdom. If a UK oil fund had been established, the earlier lie would then have been exposed.

Or alternatively, being skint with fucked up industries is the factor.

Or alternatively, the UK's Thatcher love-in - which Scotland indulged in no less than anywhere else, if you check the '79 results - is the factor.

If there had been an oil fund the cry right now would probably be about how money was being saved when people were suffering poverty - which is PRECISELY what can be heard about the cuts and austerity even by you.

So if you're working from the rational, pick one scenario that you think is the better and stick to it.

If you want both sides of the argument in your favour, at least be smart enough to know what you're doing.

What displays a surprising level of fear, and makes me wonder - what is it about an independent Scotland successive UK Govts were/are so scared of ?

the greed that McCrone picked up?

Every man for himself - what is driving the iScotland idea - is as Thatcherite as it gets, and is no basis for any nation.

[eFestivals]

What's with the fear , Neil ?

I've got no fear.

Unlike Scotland's, with regard to pensions, currency, borders, banks, the EU, defence, and everything else.

I can see why the UK govt are shitting themselves tho - and that's because the history of the UK makes it difficult for the rUK to protect itself from an iScotland fuck-up.

[kaosmark2]

why "should" it have been in the public domain?

Sometimes, some things are best left unsaid because of the consequences that might come from it....

I don't trust politicians to make those decisions for us. I'd rather everyone in the country were treated like intelligent people who could make their minds up based on facts, than manipulated, deceived and drowned in double-speak until we're either disillusioned, paranoid, or resigned to a sense of no control (or possibly all of the above).

[LJS]

Or alternatively, the UK's Thatcher love-in - which Scotland indulged in no less than anywhere else, if you check the '79 results - is the factor.

Well about 12.5% less actually ( 43.9% UK, 31.5% Scotland)

this was the second LOWEST % vote for the Tories in Scotland since the second world war.

remind not to come to one of your love ins!!!

As I have said before, Scotland was not an anti conservative country until Thatcher came along. The Tories had the highest share of the vote in Scotland in 1959 & continued to receive votes in the 30,s & 40,s% until Maggie worked her unique magic.

[LJS]

Every man for himself - what is driving the iScotland idea - is as Thatcherite as it gets, and is no basis for any nation.

Really?

It certainly ain't what is driving the 3 regular pro Indy posters on this column.

Nor the majority that I speak to.

Of course it will be driving some - ain't much you can do about human nature. You listen to too much stuff from the NO! campaign which concentrates on telling us we will be so much worse off, so you fall for the assumption that everyone voting yes believes we will be so much better off.

Why don't we ask Comfy numb how much talk there was at his meeting last night about the great riches in store for us after independence?

[LJS]

I don't trust politicians to make those decisions for us. I'd rather everyone in the country were treated like intelligent people who could make their minds up based on facts, than manipulated, deceived and drowned in double-speak until we're either disillusioned, paranoid, or resigned to a sense of no control (or possibly all of the above).

I think pretty much all of us would agree with you.

I would simply argue that the nearer your politicians are to home the more accountable they are likely to be & the more in touch with their constituencies they are likely to be.

No Scottish MP in Westminster can go home at night.

The majority of MSP's in Holyrood can.

Neil will counter with 2 of his favourite arguments:

1: Alex Salmond's love affair with Rupert Murdoch: Nowhere above do I say Scottish Independence will make politicians perfect but I think any whiff of corruption wafting from Holyrood pales into insignificance when compares to the rancid stench of sleaze which has consistently eminated from Westminster.

2: Neil's bedroom: The ideal democracy would be you govern yourself because you would always get the government you want. i really don't want to go into Neil's bedroom! He might be in the middle of one of his famous love-ins

[Buff124]

why "should" it have been in the public domain?

Again, you make me wonder. Are you against the Freedom of Information Act ? Do you think people like Ed Snowden are traitors ?

Anyways....to continue on the theme of suppression of publicly funded information (paid for by you and me).

Hansard excerpt from today in the House of Commons, Deputy PM's Questions (my emphasis)

Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP):

The Government have hushed up an opinion poll from the taxpayers who paid for it at a cost of £50,000. The poll reportedly shows a surge in support for Scottish independence. Tory and Labour scare stories are not working. There should be no Government secrecy, so will the Deputy Prime Minister be straight with the public on independence and publish that poll? There is no reason that it should be kept secret.

The Deputy Prime Minister:

I have learned to try to be a bit wary about opinion polls. The only poll that counts is the poll that will take place on 18 September. I very much hope, and people such as me who do not have a vote—those of us south of the border—fervently hope that the Scottish people will decide to remain part of the family of nations that makes up the United Kingdom, because there is so much that we can do together that we simply cannot do apart. That is very much the argument that I hope will prevail on 18 September.

[No further reply given]

Curious.

http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/hansard/commons/todays-commons-debates/read/unknown/17/#c17

Edited May 13, 2014 by Buff124

[kaosmark2]

I think pretty much all of us would agree with you.

I would simply argue that the nearer your politicians are to home the more accountable they are likely to be & the more in touch with their constituencies they are likely to be.

No Scottish MP in Westminster can go home at night.

The majority of MSP's in Holyrood can.

Neil will counter with 2 of his favourite arguments:

1: Alex Salmond's love affair with Rupert Murdoch: Nowhere above do I say Scottish Independence will make politicians perfect but I think any whiff of corruption wafting from Holyrood pales into insignificance when compares to the rancid stench of sleaze which has consistently eminated from Westminster.

2: Neil's bedroom: The ideal democracy would be you govern yourself because you would always get the government you want. i really don't want to go into Neil's bedroom! He might be in the middle of one of his famous love-ins

I don't think Scottish independence will result in improved lives for anyone. I think greater devolution is the best option (all over the UK, not just to Scotland), along with a more proportional government and new voting system (I favour AV+, although I still reckon PR would be better than our current shite).

[LJS]

I don't think Scottish independence will result in improved lives for anyone. I think greater devolution is the best option (all over the UK, not just to Scotland), along with a more proportional government and new voting system (I favour AV+, although I still reckon PR would be better than our current shite).

You may be right.. I may be wrong..

We are all entitled to our view

[russycarps]

You people cant even organise a little ticket sale ffs!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-27388429

[Buff124]

I don't think Scottish independence will result in improved lives for anyone. I think greater devolution is the best option (all over the UK, not just to Scotland), along with a more proportional government and new voting system (I favour AV+, although I still reckon PR would be better than our current shite).

Fair enough. We live in a very connected, joined up world. No state is truly independent. Devolution of power from bigger to smaller administrative bodies fits into that inter-dependent world model. Even Noam Chomsky agrees with you.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/25/scottish-referendum-noam-chomsky-yes-bowie-no-independence

[Buff124]

Welsh political blogger Mike Sivier relates the cancellation of the Scottish Young Conservatives 2014 Conference. They had sold a total of 12 tickets.for the big event of their year.

http://mikesivier.wordpress.com/2014/05/12/scottish-tory-party-youth-wing-cancels-annual-conference-after-selling-just-12-tickets/