The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

I'm not disputing the votes, I'm disputing the meaning you're attaching to them.

Tory thinkers don't stop being tory thinkers if they decide to vote for someone else. Blair was the perfect illustration of that.

The tories are still in Scotland they're just hiding under different flags.

Whilst there is undoubtedly some truth in that, I would argue, that with the advent of Thatcherism, the nature of British Conservatism changed. For whatever reason that change was not embraced North of the border ( or in Wales/ Tyneside/Merseyside) in the way it was south of Birmingham.

As I have suggested before, Independence could see a revival in the Scottish Conservative Party if it drops the idealogical fanaticism of the UK party.

Edited May 14, 2014 by LJS

[Buff124]

Some place, Scotland.... closet Tories and Reds under the beds.

[LJS]

comedy time

'Independence would turn Scotland into soft underbelly for terrorists'

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/independence-would-turn-scotland-into-soft-underbelly-for-terrorists-9368336.html

[Buff124]

Does the Governor of the Punjab know about this ?

[LJS]

I'm not sure how i feel about living in a soft underbelly

[kaosmark2]

comedy time

'Independence would turn Scotland into soft underbelly for terrorists'

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/independence-would-turn-scotland-into-soft-underbelly-for-terrorists-9368336.html

Are they hiding in the soft underbelly of his chins?

[Buff124]

Phew! Final whistle at the Cowdenbeath v Dunfermline championship playoff first leg (was live on BBC Alba).

Two snippets of news, possibly not completely unrelated ?

More Scottish voters are favouring independence as criticism grows that the campaign to keep them in the United Kingdom is too negative, according to an opinion poll on Wednesday....among those certain to vote, 35 percent would opt for independence against 44 percent opposition, narrowing the gap between the two sides to nine points, its lowest since the TNS poll began last September when the gap was 22 points.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/05/14/uk-scotland-independence-poll-idUKKBN0DT23L20140514

Better Together, the cross-party campaign to encourage Scotland to vote no to independence, is holding last-ditch talks with agencies as it seeks to shore up support ahead of the September poll.

Sources said the Labour MP Douglas Alexander is leading the initiative and has approached a number of advertising agencies. Agencies are waiting for a brief and could be asked to pitch ideas for the campaign as early as next week.

http://www.campaignlive.co.uk/news/1294347/better-together-holds-last-ditch-ad-agency-talks-ahead-scottish-referendum/

[russycarps]

No currency union says Osborne again. No ifs, no buts.

Still swinney won't accept it. Of course he won't, as they have no plan b.

Best to just bury your head in the sand than face the awful reality I guess. Unfortunately this is real people's lives the liars in the snp are gambling with.

Edited May 15, 2014 by russycarps

[eFestivals]

Two snippets of news, possibly not completely unrelated ?

But the first isn't true!!!!!

People are moving away from voting yes, not supporting it in ever greater numbers.

I suggest you check the latest polls.

[LJS]

Oops

Edited May 15, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

No currency union says Osborne again. No ifs, no buts.

Still swinney won't accept it. Of course he won't, as they have no plan b.

Best to just bury your head in the sand than face the awful reality I guess. Unfortunately this is real people's lives the liars in the snp are gambling with.

Funnily enough, according to the No campaign any currency option will be a disaster. Odd that!

I have said before that I don't really understand why the SNP are so set on a currency union.

Equally, I think the orchestrated rejection of currency union by the 3 Westminster parties was clearly a tactic to try & wrongfoot the SNP. If I were one of the many English voters who travel regularly to Scotland or do cross border business, I would like to think my government would be prepared to discuss some sort of arrangement that would prevent me having to change money every time I travelled.

Edited May 15, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

But the first isn't true!!!!!

People are moving away from voting yes, not supporting it in ever greater numbers.

I suggest you check the latest polls.

Both are "true"

If you compare with most recent poll no is up.

If you compare with last poll by same organization Yes is up.

Of course each side chooses the comparison that suits them. If it was the other way round they would just swap places.

[russycarps]

I have said before that I don't really understand why the SNP are so set on a currency union.

Because the alternatives all spell financial ruin for scotland for an extended period.

Easier to just shout "Bluff and bluster!" than to spell out the alternatives.

The worst thing about this whole independence thing is george osborne is looking very impressive in many peoples eyes. He is making swinney and the rest look like utter fools, and this elevates his own standing.

Thanks a bunch.

[eFestivals]

I have said before that I don't really understand why the SNP are so set on a currency union.

because people are naturally wary of change - you know, wary of the massive changes that independence will bring.

Because there's not actually that great a proportion who naturally want indy for Scotland, the SNP have been smart enough to realise that their only chance of winning is thru bullshit.

Bullshit about the fact that they'll be big changes, and bullshit about the benefits.

[eFestivals]

Equally, I think the orchestrated rejection of currency union by the 3 Westminster parties was clearly a tactic to try & wrongfoot the SNP.

you know that whooshing sound you keep hearing? That's the world passing you by.

What part of the nothing-to-do-with-the-SNP anti-CU propaganda of the last 25 years has passed you by?

All of it, clearly.

But you, like so much of Scotland, are welcome to act out Boris's vision of Merseyside if you wish.... tho that only makes you a tory wet dream.

If I were one of the many English voters who travel regularly to Scotland or do cross border business, I would like to think my government would be prepared to discuss some sort of arrangement that would prevent me having to change money every time I travelled.

yeah, because a bit of easy holiday money is what it's all about.

FFS, until you're able to grasp the very basics of what Salmond is asking for, you might as well be shitting in your own mouth as make idiotic comments like that.

Edited May 15, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Both are "true"

If you compare with most recent poll no is up.

If you compare with last poll by same organization Yes is up.

Of course each side chooses the comparison that suits them. If it was the other way round they would just swap places.

Or alternatively, you can look at the trend of the polls, and get to see how the truth is panning out, completely free of any "what-I-want".

You know, some of those certain facts that yes-ers only ever reject.

[LJS]

You had a wee spell of sounding kind of sane & rational for a while, Neil.

Now you back to that "FFS shit in your mouth" Neil we all know & love.

Edited May 15, 2014 by LJS

[eFestivals]

You had a wee spell of sounding kind of sane & rational for a while, Neil.

Now you back to that "FFS shit in your mouth" Neil we all know & love.

That's it, you concentrate on my delivery and keep on ignoring why it's said. Boris wants to widen his stereotype.

[eFestivals]

What you're failing to understand is that Salmond is saying he wants independence, but with rUK guaranteeing - with *MY* cash - his choice of independence, where the main motivation is to deny rUK any 'surplus' that Scotland might have.

It's hardly surprising that the likes of me is saying "will I fuck".

And that's before getting on to any of the 25+ years of anti-CU propaganda.

And yet I'm actually happy to consider a CU with iScotland, but on its own basis, completely separate to anything to do with independence - and that's because a CU is not a right of iScotland, just like a say on rUK foreign policy is not a right of iScotland, or any control over the rUK's military is not a right of iScotland.

rUK and iScotland can choose to share anything they like on a mutual basis, but that's something separate from anything about indy.

It's not about a bit of holiday money.

[LJS]

Because the alternatives all spell financial ruin for scotland for an extended period.

excellent

there is no currency option which will spell anything less than disaster.

god knows how all these other countries manage.

This is a perfect example of why the No campaign is so distrusted by a large part of the Scottish Electorate.

Edited May 15, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

Or alternatively, you can look at the trend of the polls, and get to see how the truth is panning out, completely free of any "what-I-want".

You know, some of those certain facts that yes-ers only ever reject.

http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/should-scotland-be-an-independent-country-1#line

I think trying to make any kind of definitive conclusion from the polls would be difficult.

Politicians will always try & spin the results in their way ( or suppress them if they don';t like the results)

[LJS]

What you're failing to understand is that Salmond is saying he wants independence, but with rUK guaranteeing - with *MY* cash - his choice of independence, where the main motivation is to deny rUK any 'surplus' that Scotland might have.

It's hardly surprising that the likes of me is saying "will I fuck".

And that's before getting on to any of the 25+ years of anti-CU propaganda.

And yet I'm actually happy to consider a CU with iScotland, but on its own basis, completely separate to anything to do with independence - and that's because a CU is not a right of iScotland, just like a say on rUK foreign policy is not a right of iScotland, or any control over the rUK's military is not a right of iScotland.

rUK and iScotland can choose to share anything they like on a mutual basis, but that's something separate from anything about indy.

It's not about a bit of holiday money.

Not entirely sure what all the above ranting is really about.

As you know, I am not Alex Salmond's cheerleader or spokesman so I will leave him to speak for himself.

All I am saying, is "why rule out currency Union?" As you have ceaselessly pointed out (& everyone including the SNP recognises) the terms of any such Union would have to be negotiated. Both sides would clearly have their positions but the rUK would clearly be holding all the aces.

I have serious reservations that these conditions may well limit the effective powers of an Independent Scottish government to such an extent that it may not be the best option, but I do believe it makes sense to discuss all the options.

It makes sense for both sides. I believe Scotland is England's second largest export market - I haven't checked this fact - but at any rate we are bound to be a pretty significant one so it is actually in rUK's interest for Scotland to be an economic success. Equally, if Scotland were to be the economic disaster some are predicting you run the risk of being flooded with economic McMigrants.

I'm not demanding anything as a right. all I am demanding is what was agreed in the Edinburgh Agreement

The two governments are committed to continue to work together constructively in the light of the outcome, whatever it

is, in the best interests of the people of Scotland and of the rest of the United Kingdom.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130109092234/http://www.number10.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Agreement-final-for-signing.pdf

Edited May 15, 2014 by LJS

[LJS]

2014

Cameron: voting No in indyref will ensure more powers for Holyrood

1979

The campaign also developed a new approach, demonstrated most

clearly in Lord Home’s broadcast that held out the prospect of a future Conservative

government producing more effective devolution proposals than those contained in

the Scotland Act 1978.

[russycarps]

excellent

there is no currency option which will spell anything less than disaster.

god knows how all these other countries manage.

This is a perfect example of why the No campaign is so distrusted by a large part of the Scottish Electorate.

Let's hope you dont have to find out.

Setting up a new currency from scratch, you dont think this will cause a period of massive financial upheaval?!

Or are you suggesting the first act of independence will to impose a self-denying ordinance

[Buff124]

See if the official NO campaign organisation was called Equal Together, then we might have been getting somewhere.