The Dirty Independence Question

[DomDom1984]

Can folk stop talking about the SNP btw? This myth that they'll be relevant post-vote is actually scary. Get a grip you utter idiots.

[DomDom1984]

If we were to become some Star Wars empire btw, it'd probably still be better than a Tory government.

[eFestivals]

Yawn

Oh c'mon .... surely you expect there to be further referendums for indy if this one isn't won?

It's one of those things which will be endlessly repeated until people vote the 'right' way.

[eFestivals]

Can folk stop talking about the SNP btw? This myth that they'll be relevant post-vote is actually scary. Get a grip you utter idiots.

And yet the party that every scot seems to say they hate got 44% of the vote for the current SG, are the only party putting forwards what every yes-er says is so important, and are the ones who have laid out the official vision for an independent Scotland that people will be voting to endorse.

If you want people outside of Scotland to stop associating the SNP with indy, the people in Scotland will first have to stop associating with the SNP about indy.

Edited May 20, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Just as well I'll not need to vote for him isn't it?

and yet you've been posting here that you'll be voting in support of him.

[DomDom1984]

I give your opinion some credence because you talk a lot of sense. I don't like or agree with a lot of it, but it all comes from a place of conviction, and more importantly, it can all be true.

The anti-SNP stuff makes me shudder though.

[eFestivals]

I give your opinion some credence because you talk a lot of sense. I don't like or agree with a lot of it, but it all comes from a place of conviction, and more importantly, it can all be true.

I don't much like what I end up being, a defender of the status quo.

And yet that's nothing of what i'm trying to be. I'm trying to look at things dispassionately, and what I see is an offer that pretends to be something better while failing to be that.

The anti-SNP stuff makes me shudder though.

I used to have a fair bit of respect for Salmond, but I'm discovering that was because so much of him had passed me by.

On the basis of his own words I'm left with an over-riding feeling that he's no less the lying tory than anyone at Westminster.

How does he get away with the pretence of being somehow to the left? I can't find anything left-of-centre about him.

[LJS]

Oh c'mon .... surely you expect there to be further referendums for indy if this one isn't won?

It's one of those things which will be endlessly repeated until people vote the 'right' way.

It was the tiresome ukip reference I was yawning at. Edited May 20, 2014 by LJS

[eFestivals]

It was the tiresome ukip reference I was yawning at.

Just because you won't accept the numerous similarities doesn't mean there's not an awful lot of similarities.

Never mind, I'm sure you'll get over it.

[eFestivals]

so anyway .... what is being given on a plate to Rupert?

Rupert is not a man who does things for nothing, and when Alex chums up to Rupert more expertly than the tories can currently manage, there's certainly a mutually-worthwhile deal in the offing.

People in Scotland might think they're getting their country back, but all the while the man who is telling you that is giving it away.

Edited May 20, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

and yet you've been posting here that you'll be voting in support of him.

Rubbish

[LJS]

Just because you won't accept the numerous similarities doesn't mean there's not an awful lot of similarities.

Never mind, I'm sure you'll get over it.

Oh yeah. I remember that hilarious article you quoted that showed all the similarities based entirely on opinions that you confused with facts. & couldn't actually point to any facts when challenged.

Factgate, I call it

[Buff124]

How does he get away with the pretence of being somehow to the left? I can't find anything left-of-centre about him.

The 79 Group was a faction within the Scottish National Party (SNP), named after its year of formation, 1979. The group sought to persuade the SNP to take an active left-wing stance, arguing that it would win more support, and were highly critical of the established SNP leaders. Although it had a tiny membership, the group caused sufficient disquiet that it was expelled from the SNP in 1982, although its members were subsequently readmitted and many attained senior positions in the Scottish Government after 2007; First Minister Alex Salmond was a leading member of the group.

[eFestivals]

Alex Salmond was a leading member of the group.

then I wonder why he had a more-right-wing-than-the-tories policy towards the banks, and has a tory corp tax cut as his only firm financial post-indy policy?

In case you've missed it, as corp tax has got cut over the last 30-ish years, the gap between rich and poor has grown.

[eFestivals]

Oh yeah. I remember that hilarious article you quoted that showed all the similarities based entirely on opinions that you confused with facts. & couldn't actually point to any facts when challenged.

Factgate, I call it

Yep, the words full of facts that you couldn't find.

I can't be sure now, but I don't think you even found the fact of both Farange and Salmond having stepped down from the leadership, only to be 'called back' to the job because of a lack of capable replacements.

But it was empty of facts, you're right.

Edited May 20, 2014 by eFestivals

[Buff124]

then I wonder why he had a more-right-wing-than-the-tories policy towards the banks, and has a tory corp tax cut as his only firm financial post-indy policy?

.

I don't really buy into that level of personalisation. Its naive.

Yes, I occasionally mention Thatcher, but am fully aware that people like Whitelaw, Neave, and other Tory grandees held the real power. .

In case you've missed it, as corp tax has got cut over the last 30-ish years, the gap between rich and poor has grown.

I haven't missed that Quantitative Easing is the main driver of income inequality in the UK.

http://www.occupy.com/article/how-federal-reserve-and-bank-england-are-fueling-massive-global-inequality

[LJS]

Yep, the words full of facts that you couldn't find.

I can't be sure now, but I don't think you even found the fact of both Farange and Salmond having stepped down from the leadership, only to be 'called back' to the job because of a lack of capable replacements.

But it was empty of facts, you're right.

That is really the best "fact" you can come up with? - really? It's also debatable - Nigel may have been "called back because of the lack of capable replacements" - his predecessor basically resigned saying he was shite at the job & Nigel is pretty much the only member of Ukip who can string a couple of sentences together without having to resign.

Alex on the other hand decided to stand in the leadership election & won. To say there were no "capable replacements" is at the very least debatable.

However,even if we do accept it as a fact, it doesn't establish any significant political similarity either in policy or tactics any more than if we discovered they both eat Frosties for breakfast or collect butterflies.

[LJS]

then I wonder why he had a more-right-wing-than-the-tories policy towards the banks, and has a tory corp tax cut as his only firm financial post-indy policy?

In case you've missed it, as corp tax has got cut over the last 30-ish years, the gap between rich and poor has grown.

This has been answered on numerous occasions by more than one contributor but you just keep rolling it out regardless. Like a demented Road Roller.

Your "debating" style is quite unique.

[eFestivals]

I don't really buy into that level of personalisation. Its naive.

Fair enough, but if that's the case then you have to own up to having a tory party in govt.

I haven't missed that Quantitative Easing is the main driver of income inequality in the UK.

that's only recently, when they've stepped up the robbery.

[eFestivals]

However,even if we do accept it as a fact, it doesn't establish any significant political similarity either in policy or tactics any more than if we discovered they both eat Frosties for breakfast or collect butterflies.

If you care to remember, the very first fact (you managed to spot that one at the time) stated they had different policies.

If you can't spot the same method of operation tho, a lot is passing you by.

[LJS]

If you care to remember, the very first fact (you managed to spot that one at the time) stated they had different policies.

If you can't spot the same method of operation tho, a lot is passing you by.

The actual statement was about them occupying different points on the political spectrum which sounds a bit more fundamental than just having different policies but I'll let that go.

It is another fact of no relevance at all to your argument - if anything it is slightly against it, but i'm happy to settle for a draw on that one.

& yes they have similar methods of operation - they have candidates at elections - they deliver leaflets through my door, they put posters up stigmatising foreigners,& they say we should worry if foreigners move in next door.

Oh no, they don't do they?

Because they are different in every essential & significant way.

Which is why one leads a government & the other as you have rightly pointed out elsewhere is little more than a protest vote.

[LJS]

Now here's a fun game : Why Better Together are similar to Ukip:

1: they both employ the politics of fear - UKip: foregners waiting to steal your jobs

BT: You will get border controls & be kicked out of EU

2: they are both split internally: Ukip: string of resignations &allegations of bullying against Nigel F

BT: tories brief against Darling - Labour brief against Cameron, everyone briefs against lib ddems

3: they are both dodgy on expenses Ukip: Nigel trousers Euro Allowances

BT: Duck houses , second homes etc etc etc

4: they both love the pound bleedin' obvious

Now this is just a bit of fun & I wouldn't claim 100% accuracy but it is no worse than the stuff Neil quoted linking Salmond & Farage & what's more I wrote it all myself.

[Buff124]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dHUfy_YBps

EDIT: subliminal innit

EDIT:

Edited May 20, 2014 by Buff124

[DomDom1984]

Neil, do you see the SNP and Alex Salmond in general as relevant to the independence debate?

Worth noting that a "Yes" means you're a total moron.

[LJS]

Neil, do you see the SNP and Alex Salmond in general as relevant to the independence debate?

Worth noting that a "Yes" means you're a total moron.

Since Neil is still eating his porridge, i''ll answer this one.

If you mean is the referendum a vote for Alex & the Snp then the answer is no.

Neil gets a bit confused about this sometimes.

However, I don't think you can say they are irrelevant to the debate. We wouldn't be having the vote if it wasn't for them & much of the debate is framed by their white paper. This is unfortunate as, again, we ate not voting for the white paper.