The Dirty Independence Question

[viberunner]

I would like to see Neil campaign up here.

English people telling Scotland that Scotland is shit without England would be a very useful contribution to the YES campaign.

[LJS]

I would like to see Neil campaign up here.

English people telling Scotland that Scotland is shit without England would be a very useful contribution to the YES campaign.

Shall we club together & buy him a ticket?

[eFestivals]

Do you honestly think it could be 100 times more shit ? Really ??

I think you've become infected.

Of course I don't, just as you don't consider "Just the opportunity to rule ourselves would be fine for me".

The context around these ideas affects the view a person has of these ideas.

From my previous post " As has been said many times before there is no guarantee of a fairer more equal Scotland but with a working class majority voting I think there is a better chance."

That's great *IF* there's a "working class majority". The Euros show that political views in Scotland are identical to views in England even tho the votes get distributed differently around the parties for both natioalistic and historical reasons.

When Scotland is solidly voting for a party that would have deregulated the banks to at least the same lax extent as the tories, the votes are not all in support of what yes-ers like to imagine.

[eFestivals]

Morning neil,

Sounding a bit like Ukip this morning.

Has their Fox been in your henhouse?

Project Fear says that iScotland will get the extreme end of the stick.

Project McFear says that the UK has already got the extreme end of the stick.

With confidence, vote YES.

And then spend a lifetime wondering quite why you fell for those politicians yet again.

[eFestivals]

I would like to see Neil campaign up here.

English people telling Scotland that Scotland is shit without England would be a very useful contribution to the YES campaign.

You guys really are in a stupid mindset, aren't you?

I'm 100% in support of indy. If you were smarter than you are, you'd have recognised that fact.

It's a shame that the SNP are not and the people of Scotland are not.

[LJS]

Hmm

SNP in 2nd place in Orkney & Shetland....interesting.

[Buff124]

This is a minor classic.

A tweet from the CEO of pro Union referendum campaign group Better Together.

"Salmond ignoring that 140k voted for a xenophobic party and arguing we're different from England"

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BokICjhIQAEFjhL.jpg

4.18am 26 May

[Buff124]

This is a minor classic.

A tweet from the CEO of pro Union referendum campaign group Better Together.

"Salmond ignoring that 140k voted for a xenophobic party and arguing we're different from England"

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BokICjhIQAEFjhL.jpg

4.18am 26 May

I get the feeling that UKIP won't be welcome to join the campaign to save the Union.

Or will they ?

[eFestivals]

Interesting news from Westminster, where the SNP are being told that if it wishes to keep operating its English-xenophobic/racist uni fees policy (as it has stated it plans to), it can wave bye-bye to EU membership forever.

The cost of yes has just significantly increased.

Edited May 27, 2014 by eFestivals

[Buff124]

Interesting news from Westminster, where the SNP are being told that if it wishes to keep operating its English-xenophobic/racist uni fees policy (as it has stated it plans to), it can wave bye-bye to EU membership forever.

The cost of yes has just significantly increased.

But who would be crazy enough to send their kid to a Scotch 'seat of higher learning' ??!!

[Buff124]

..and we just burnt doon the School o Airt,so ye canna gang there nae mair

[Buff124]

Interesting news from Westminster, where the SNP are being told

and who might be doing the telling ?

The Scottish Government are being told by the chair of the Scottish Affairs select committee. Who is ?

Step forward, Ian 'Bayonet the Wounded' Davidson, Labour MP for Glasgow South West.

next.

EDIT: and possibly a future MSP for the Glasgow Pollok constituency

Edited May 27, 2014 by Buff124

[eFestivals]

But who would be crazy enough to send their kid to a Scotch 'seat of higher learning' ??!!

only a fool, while there's the current racist SG policy.

[eFestivals]

and who might be doing the telling ?

The Scottish Government are being told by the chair of the Scottish Affairs select committee. Who is ?

Step forward, Ian 'Bayonet the Wounded' Davidson, Labour MP for Glasgow South West.

next.

EDIT: and possibly a future MSP for the Glasgow Pollok constituency

They're being told by a committee of the UK govt - you know, the govt that iScotland needs to be on its side if it wants EU membership, and the govt which won't go along with the SNP's wish to be in the EU but not work to the EU's rules.

I'm not sure how much that's changed the iScottish budgets. My guess is that it's saved the future SG some money - but not its citizens.

[Buff124]

Y'know that article does contain this little gem

"Salmond's case was weakened further because he would need the UK government's agreement to use article 48 under the first minister's timetable for negotiating accession before Scotland became independent. There was no prospect of the UK doing so if Scotland planned to discriminate against UK students on fees or fight to share UK opt-outs, the committee said."

So the UK Govt are saying they might support the use of the Article 48 fast track method, but might want some concessions eg ditch uni fees for EWNI students.

The pre-negotiation negotiating continues.

[LJS]

They're being told by a committee of the UK govt - you know, the govt that iScotland needs to be on its side if it wants EU membership, and the govt which won't go along with the SNP's wish to be in the EU but not work to the EU's rules.

I'm not sure how much that's changed the iScottish budgets. My guess is that it's saved the future SG some money - but not its citizens.

& a government that is currently campaigning for a No vote.

[LJS]

Y'know that article does contain this little gem

"Salmond's case was weakened further because he would need the UK government's agreement to use article 48 under the first minister's timetable for negotiating accession before Scotland became independent. There was no prospect of the UK doing so if Scotland planned to discriminate against UK students on fees or fight to share UK opt-outs, the committee said."

So the UK Govt are saying they might support the use of the Article 48 fast track method, but might want some concessions eg ditch uni fees for EWNI students.

The pre-negotiation negotiating continues.

You have to admire their principled stand against fees.

Very laudable.

[eFestivals]

So the UK Govt are saying they might support the use of the Article 48 fast track method, but might want some concessions eg ditch uni fees for EWNI students.

The pre-negotiation negotiating continues.

I read it as the UK govt saying "if you won't play by the EU's rules we won't support your EU membership" - which is fair enough.

But the *real* point is the impact that has on the SG's plans. Either they'll have to find extra dosh to pay for the rUK students who are currently being charged, or Scottish students will end up paying a standard-level fee the same as rUK students will have to.

As for anything about Article 48, if the UK govt isn't on side, that's a total non-starter for iScotland.

(and as for whether Article 48 support from the UK govt will bring iScotland anything worthwhile in regard to the EU, that's another thing entirely. I can't see that process being worked thru by March 2016, the EU just doesn't work that fast).

[eFestivals]

You have to admire their principled stand against fees.

Very laudable.

The Scottish Govt's racist stand is racism on principle is it?

[Buff124]

only a fool, while there's the current racist SG policy.

bit of a cheap shot that, although you've said SG rather than SNP or Salmond (deduct points for that)

Other than that its the predictable, deliberate misrepresentation. The difference between civic nationalism and ethnic nationalism is not one lost on you, yet it suits the argument to continually pretend otherwise. 4 out of 10

EDIT: Civic nationalism lies within the traditions of rationalism and liberalism, but as a form of nationalism it is contrasted with ethnic nationalism.

Membership of the civic nation is considered voluntary, as in Ernest Renan's classical definition in "Qu'est-ce qu'une nation?" of the nation as a "daily referendum" characterized by the "will to live together".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_nationalism

Edited May 27, 2014 by Buff124

[eFestivals]

bit of a cheap shot that, although you've said SG rather than SNP or Salmond (deduct points for that)

it's the policy of the Scottish Govt.

But you don't seem to like the facts about anything.

Other than that its the predictable, deliberate misrepresentation. The difference between civic nationalism and ethnic nationalism is not one lost on you, yet it suits the argument to continually pretend otherwise. 4 out of 10

The SG's policy on student fees is racist. What of that is passing you by?

[Buff124]

it's the policy of the Scottish Govt.

But you don't seem to like the facts about anything.

The SG's policy on student fees is racist. What of that is passing you by?

Ah, now I see why you've de-personalised it. Smart move.

[Buff124]

it's the policy of the Scottish Govt.

But you don't seem to like the facts about anything.

The SG's policy on student fees is racist. What of that is passing you by?

One more time. Its a policy based on residency, not ethnicity. Using your logic, the London weighting allowance is racist.

[LJS]

The SG's policy on student fees is racist. What of that is passing you by?

away & dinnae be daft.

As buff has pointed out it is based on residency not ethnicity.

You are amongst friends here - it really is demeaning the argument to start accusing anyone of racism.

The whole question of whether Scotland will be able to continue to apply its current policy within the EU after Independence is a complex one & as ever, other opinions are available. I would dearly like Scotland to continue to offer free Uni education to its citizens & I don't really see why we should provide this free to residents of rUK which does not offer the same. In a strictly practical sense, there would be a serious risk of a Flood (well a big trickle- I don't want to be alarmist here) of Tuition free refugees.

Of course EU rules mean we may have to change ... & either charge our own students or open up the floodgates. Even if that comes to pass, it may be possible to have some sort of grant support for students resident in Scotland. That would be a shame. But not a deal breaker.

Of course it would all be up to the incoming Scottish government in 2016 - which judging by what you & Russy are saying is likely to be a Tory/Ukip coalition

[LJS]

Dearie me...

"Ministers in London have misled Scottish voters over how much it would cost to set up an independent government in Edinburgh, according to the man whose analysis underpins the Treasurys case for Scotland remaining in the UK.

Patrick Dunleavy, politics professor at the London School of Economics, told the Financial Times the Treasury had manipulated his research to make the one-off costs of setting up a new government look ten times larger than they were likely to be.

His claims undermine part of the Treasurys case for staying in the union, a day before Danny Alexander, the Treasury chief secretary, is due to unveil his final estimate of how much independence could cost Scottish taxpayers."

http://m.ft.com/cms/cf63cf8c-e5b4-11e3-a7f5-00144feabdc0.html