The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

I just saw this in the Guardian's comments, and I think it sums things up pretty nicely....

I can't see what other meaningful basis there is to decide with, because the future is always a leap into the unknown.

(but if you're believing Alex, all hail the god Jam ).

As you are well aware, that is broadly my position.

[LJS]

I just think this idea that Scotland are suffering Westminster's evils more than the rest of us is bollocks. Apart from the home county nimbys, everyone across the UK has been screwed over to some degree. Scotland isn't special.

As Neil knows but chooses to ignore, it all boils down to whether you believe Scotland is a country or a county.

If it is a country, it's people are entitled to get a government that reflects how that country votes.

More than half the time Scotland doesn't.

Like it or not england does get the government it votes for.

All polls suggest a considerable majority of Scots believe Scotland is a country.

Edited May 28, 2014 by LJS

[kaosmark2]

As Neil knows but chooses to ignore, it all boils down to whether you believe Scotland is a country or a county.

If it is a country, it's people are entitled to get a government that reflects how that country votes.

More than half the time Scotland doesn't.

Like it or not england does get the government it votes for.

All polls suggest a considerable majority of Scots believe Scotland is a country.

Ah, so it's nationalism

[Buff124]

Ah, so it's CIVIC nationalism

Fixed that 4 u

"Civic nationalism is a kind of nationalism identified by political philosophers who believe in a non-xenophobic form of nationalism compatible with values of freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_nationalism

Edited May 28, 2014 by Buff124

[Buff124]

that's sod all to do with what I asked.

I pointed out that if Scotland was being penalised just on the basis that it was Scotland, then trhe din from the north would be deafening.

But when the Scottish Govt does that to the rest of UK, there's nothing racist about it. Hmmmm, OK.

That's very clearly stated, thanks.

Then please do explain how it's not racist* to discriminate against people on the basis of where they're from.

(* using the UK legal definition of ethnicity or nationality).

You *have* reported this to the Police and/or Crown Prosecution Service and/or your MP and/or Scottish Executive ? Haven't you ?

I'll be very disappointed if you haven't

[Buff124]

Cos what it really is is the (UK govt's) projected extra costs vs benefits of an independent Scotland - worse off by £1,400 under independence, or taken the other way £1,400 better off sticking with the Union.

(the guessing at those numbers isn't likely to be any better than Alex's guesses).

Oh, its a bit naughtier than guessing. From today's Indy (the newspaper)

"

Treasury figure for cost of Yes vote ‘badly misrepresents’ key research – says academic whose own work it was based on"

[eFestivals]

As Neil knows but chooses to ignore, it all boils down to whether you believe Scotland is a country or a county.

Or more precisely: what the fuck does it matter?

We're all citizens of the world. Adding extra divisions only creates an extra divide. Alex is rabble rousing, and much of Scotland is a sucker for it.

But yes, it's clearly the case that for anyone who has already decided that the country-ness of Scotland is more important than anything else, the only conclusion they'll reach is to vote yes.

More than half the time Scotland doesn't.

that's not correct. At worst, about 20% get the govt of choice and at best about 40% get the govt of choice. It's only gets marginally better in other parts of the UK.

Scotland (like the rest of the UK) could have changed that by backing AV. But it preferred to keep the system which you say disenfranchises people - so those people clearly disagree!

And in an independent Scotland, with PR, no one will EVER get (only, or all of) the policies they voted for implemented, while those on opposition side will still be complaining about not having got a govt they voted for.

Personally, I'm a big fan of PR. But that doesn't have me thinking it's anything like perfect for reflecting the diverse views within any society, or from me recognising that other systems have their benefits. The outcomes may or may not be better under one system or another, but no matter which electoral system you plump for, a similar democratic deficit is in existence for anyone to highlight if they wish to make an issue of it. That's what you get via majority rule with boundaries drawn where-ever you might wish them drawn, it's unavoidable: that's democracy.

Like it or not england does get the government it votes for.

utter crap. The outcomes are so little different overall that it's barely worth mentioning as a minor factor.

(Amusingly enough, the one time that's stepped out of the 30-40% range UK-wide in recent times is the coalition right now. Electorally - as it was on voting day - it has 60% support [just under 40% in Scotland], and yet it has almost no public support for any of the policies it's pursuing. Hoh-um ).

All polls suggest a considerable majority of Scots believe Scotland is a country.

And in some other parts of the UK, the sense of identifying with that particular UK-member state or region is stronger than it is in Scotland ... and yet they don't feel the need to call for the independence of that member state or region, or use the realities of life to invent false divisions for their own leader's empowerment &/or their financial benefit.

Which of the two has the better grasp of what is a fair society? The one that's claiming everything for themselves like a card-carrying Thatcherite or the one that is happy to share in our common luck?

Edited May 28, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

You *have* reported this to the Police and/or Crown Prosecution Service and/or your MP and/or Scottish Executive ? Haven't you ?

I'll be very disappointed if you haven't

whataboutery.

For someone who complained about it from me, you have a big habit.

[eFestivals]

Oh, its a bit naughtier than guessing. From today's Indy (the newspaper)

"

Treasury figure for cost of Yes vote ‘badly misrepresents’ key research – says academic whose own work it was based on"

And Alex mis-represents the EU citizenship issue in his Bruges speech, (and not a soul in Scotland holds him to account for it).

So that's both of them that have been caught talking utter bollocks. Which one are you buying the used car from?

You don't have to buy anything from Danny. What he is offering is what you already have.

But you'll happily empower a proven liar to take you on the roller-coaster that is the independence event?

Rather you than me.

[kaosmark2]

Fixed that 4 u

"Civic nationalism is a kind of nationalism identified by political philosophers who believe in a non-xenophobic form of nationalism compatible with values of freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_nationalism

In other words, bollocks.

I think Neil's gone too far with his accusations, but ultimately, what you're saying is "We think the Scottish are better than the English, not voting for these governments we don't like, so we're going to abandon them and trust that we'll move on and have a great life while they screw themselves over".

[Buff124]

whataboutery.

For someone who complained about it from me, you have a big habit.

That isn't whataboutery.

This is whataboutery

"an informal fallacy which attempts to suggest that the opponent's argument should be ignored because there are more important problems in the world "

Whataboutery is move the convo to an unrelated subject.

What I was merely pointing was that, given you seem convinced that institutional racism is taking place, surely you have a civic duty to make the relevant authorities aware.

You haven't of course because this is a just fer laffs discussion thread, and every click helps. Not that I'm knocking it as such (otherwise I wouldn't be here), but I do find it helpful to remember in order to maintain a sense of perspective about the throwaway comments here.

Edited May 28, 2014 by Buff124

[Buff124]

Rather you than me.

Ok.

So can we put this thread to bed then ?

[Buff124]

Meanwhile ... why ain't you taking me up on the London Weighting Allowance argument ? That's also financial assistance given by Government to a specific section within the population of a territorially defined part of the UK. Why is that not racist* ?

*using what I'm led to believe (by your good self) is the UK legal definition

[eFestivals]

I think Neil's gone too far with his accusations

I think it's more the case that people don't like to hear it said about something they have sympathies for.

Ask yourself*: what would you call it if it was Scottish students being penalised in England in the same way?

(* bearing in mind that every bit of the money originates from the same place - the common UK pot).

[LJS]

Fixed that 4 u

"Civic nationalism is a kind of nationalism identified by political philosophers who believe in a non-xenophobic form of nationalism compatible with values of freedom, tolerance, equality, and individual rights"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civic_nationalism

Thanks Buff.

I dislike the N word simply because it is too easily confused with BNP, EDL, NF etc. I am sure you will accept that is not what I support in any way.

[eFestivals]

That isn't whataboutery.

yeah it is - it's clear diversionary tactics. I was trying to discuss their actions, you wanted to avoid that discussion.

Sorry, not that green.

[Buff124]

yeah it is - it's clear diversionary tactics. I was trying to discuss their actions, you wanted to avoid that discussion.

Sorry, not that green.

Weighting Allowance then ?

[eFestivals]

Meanwhile ... why ain't you taking me up on the London Weighting Allowance argument ? That's also financial assistance given by Government to a specific section within the population of a territorially defined part of the UK. Why is that not racist* ?

*using what I'm led to believe (by your good self) is the UK legal definition

Precisely because of that definition - there's nothing nation-based about it. It's available equally to all on taking up any relevant job (that pays it) in London.

Those taking up a uni position in Scotland have different rules applying to them, dependent on where they're from. Those from rUk are financially penalised merely because they're from rUK.

See: different, very different. Next?

Edited May 28, 2014 by eFestivals

[Buff124]

. It's available equally to all on taking up any relevant job (that pays it) in London.

AND living there

[eFestivals]

AND living there

likewise with Unis in Scotland, so nothing different with that bit.

Where those from rUK have penalty rules applied to them, just because they're from rUK.

[eFestivals]

Buff, London weighting is a really shit example to argue back with - it's merely a part of the pay and conditions of a job that's open to all.

Like any job, anywhere.

If you want to argue against inequlities in what jobs pay, welcome to my tribe comrade. But it's a very lonely place when you consider the real world.

[LJS]

And Alex mis-represents the EU citizenship issue in his Bruges speech, (and not a soul in Scotland holds him to account for it).

So that's both of them that have been caught talking utter bollocks. Which one are you buying the used car from?

You don't have to buy anything from Danny. What he is offering is what you already have.

But you'll happily empower a proven liar to take you on the roller-coaster that is the independence event?

Rather you than me.

i'm not employing anyone to take me anywhere.

I am voting for Independence & will then consider applications from those who wish to run the fairground.

I know you desperately want someone who swallows hook line & sinker every word that the SNP & Mr Salmond says, to argue with. I am sorry I cannot be that person for you. Remember I opposed Independence throughout the 70's. 80's & 90's when there really would have "jam in them there Bens" You know I'm not in it for that. I don't swallow the lies, half truths & exaggerations from either side.

I don't attack Salmond & the SNP because that is not my job in this little game we are playing. It's your job.

[LJS]

When I get to 60 I will get free bus travel but only within Scotland - is it racism that I will have to pay for buses in England?

If I live in Shetland I also get 2 free boat trips a year to & from the mainland - I don't qualify for that because I don't live in Shetland - neither does my youngest son who was actually born there. is that racism?

I am sure there are better examples than these.

I would be interested to see a real cost / benefit analysis to Scotland of extending free Higher education to students from England. Clearly if we believe Scotland will be a better place to live than England post Independence would it be worth the investment in the hope a good proportion of these students would then choose to stay on in Scotland?

They will of course meanwhile be spending some money in Scotland & presumably some of them will be kids of wealthy parents who can't quite make it into Oxbridge - we already have a lot of these at St Andrew's & Edinburgh. I am sure they contribute quite a lot to the local economy.

If we can get our immigration from the rUK there will be no need for border posts at least until Dave & Nigel lead you out of the EU.

Edited May 28, 2014 by LJS

[kaosmark2]

I think it's more the case that people don't like to hear it said about something they have sympathies for.

Ask yourself*: what would you call it if it was Scottish students being penalised in England in the same way?

(* bearing in mind that every bit of the money originates from the same place - the common UK pot).

I largely agree with your points. I just disagree with your aggressive debate tactics and phrasing.

[LJS]

just an observation...

No expense has been spared over the years to ensure that the democratic wish of the residents of the Falkland Islands are able to exercise their democratic right to remain British.

It would appear no expense is being spared to persuade the residents of Scotland that they should remain part if the UK.