sometimes, I just feel like crying......

[kaosmark2]

seems pretty natural to me. Kids will kick a stone around if there's nothing else

but women dancing with poles comes from the sex industry. I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't (or whatever) be done outside of it now, but that's where it comes from

[The Nal]

As Chris Rock said "I ain't got nothing against them, but if your daughter's a stripper.... you fucked up"

[feral chile]

One thing in that article bothers me - the link between pole-dancing and the sex industry. I know a number of girls who pole-dance for a hobby, and they don't do it to turn men on, or ever want to use it to make money in that way, they view it as a fun activity and good exercise.

[kaosmark2]

That article was very interesting. When the law changed to declassify lap dancing clubs and pole dancing clubs as part of the sex industry, it became more socially acceptable and 'sanitised'

When the law changed back again, people suddenly remembered how sleazy it was.

it suggests that if you see pole dancing as dancing it's OK, but linked to sex it's not OK. It suddenly becomes exploitative.

I'll have to think about that one, but my first thoughts are that if perceptions can change so much, I don't think it's pole dancing per se that's exploitative. I think it's more that when it's classed as linked to the sex industry, it's seen as not a respectable pastime - it becomes associated with pornography and prostitution, not dance.

[fred quimby]

are women naturally inclined to dance with poles...?

[lost]

There seems to be alot of articles about currently using single exceptions to try to prove the rule.

I know a girl who worked at a lap dancing club who was once followed home by a customer. I also know a girl who worked for the NHS, one of the contractors who worked there become obsessed with her, hacked the employee db for her address and then turned up at her house. Solving the first issue by banning lap dancing clubs seems about as sensible to me as solving the second by dismantling the NHS.

" my job affected my self esteem and made me a more cynical person"

I can name at least two jobs in the past that have made me feel like that. I've generally put it down to shitty employers rather than thinking we should remove entire industries.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-16869029

to counter the idea that all women involved don't have a problem with it...

Danns, 28, regrets that her time as a lap dancer made her a harder, more cynical person.

She admits she was initially seduced by the notion that modern lap dancing was a safe, secure expression of female empowerment. In fact, she says, her experience was defined by the damage it gradually inflicted to her self-esteem and the regular verbal, and sometimes physical abuse she received from customers.

"There's a generation which is used to a culture in which it's normal that everything has become a commodity," she says.

"Some men come in and they love women. But others use it to vent the bitterness and frustration that they have against women. They aren't being challenged about it and that's damaging for everyone."

[feral chile]

it's not the same though, is it?

[lost]

it's not the same though, is it?

[feral chile]

I don't know, I really don't..

Sex, and so much that's associated with it, is so complicated... and it just seems wrong. It should be so simple... it's the most basic part of our existence, and we play games with it. I often wonder what it must be like for a couple in a relationship, when one of them works in the sex industry... how does that 'work'? (and that's ignoring any health issues)... maybe it'd be fine...maybe it'd be fantastic..?... maybe I'm not as open-minded as I wish I was.

I'm not passing any judgement on anyone who might be working in the sex industry... well, I'm trying not to.

The pole-dancing aspect is fairly irrelevant. I don't know why I got involved in that part of the discussion. I don't think it's odd that it should be brought up in the context of the article I posted... it's part of it...

One thing that really confuses me is lap dancing. It seems to me the oddest thing that men pay for a girl to do what they do... wouldn't it be the most frustrating thing ever..?

[Ed209]

I don't know, I really don't..

Sex, and so much that's associated with it, is so complicated... and it just seems wrong. It should be so simple... it's the most basic part of our existence, and we play games with it. I often wonder what it must be like for a couple in a relationship, when one of them works in the sex industry... how does that 'work'? (and that's ignoring any health issues)... maybe it'd be fine...maybe it'd be fantastic..?... maybe I'm not as open-minded as I wish I was.

[grumpyhack]

Eating and drinking are also the most basic parts of our existence, yet humans feel a need to turn that into something much much more,

[feral chile]

What's this ad then?

[The Nal]

would you like to expand on that?

[feral chile]

I will

[feral chile]

that's very interesting, and fits in with feral chile's point that we (British) seem to struggle to find a middle ground. I love food, and cooking, but when I see chefs frothing at the mouth over some rare speciality dish, inside I'm screaming "it's food, we eat it, people are dying because thay can't get any of it"...

yes, I get a bit over dramatic...

those 2 points don't seem to 'fit'

[Rufus Gwertigan]

The lower end, and the sex industry, is less valued, the greasy spoon and sex clubs are looked down upon, and people almost condone exploitation in these places, because they're not quite respectable. So it's almost like the people within shouldn't expect protection.

We should have more acceptance and closer regulation, so that people feeling exploited can feel they have rights.

[feral chile]

I think maybe it is from what I have experienced at a young age but I have always seen those around me treat those in the sex industry with nothing but respect. Admittedly a lot is based on experiences on the continent but even so. In saying that I was shocked with the reaction of my son a while back. We where getting an early morning train and we where outside the station whilst he had a smoke. He was approached by a woman for a fag and I got chatting asking her how was business and how 5am seems a strange time. Cut to the chase we went off and my lad asked what we were on about. When I said she was a prostitute he was gobsmacked at first, but then repulsed we had been talking with her. That attitude really shocked me and it was one I am not used to.

[Ed209]

those 2 points don't seem to 'fit'

[feral chile]

Maybe I didn't explain myself very well. My point is that in theory I have no problem with a sex industry where the people involved are not being exploited. I believe it perfectly possible that the adults (men and woman) can participate willfully and contently in paid sex, pole dancing etc. They can express themselves, their art form, their trade and enjoy doing it. This i'm all for. To some people (especially british) this can seem smutty and degrading, while some people see sex no differently as any other human function, and we can build business and art around it.

Unfortunately though, as with all walks of life, exploitation exists. In the sex industry this can take particularly brutal forms.

[kaosmark2]

Yes, exactly. in theory, what's wrong with men admiring a beautiful woman, women enjoying their own beauty, enjoying the admiration of others, etc.?

The fault lies with public attitudes to that, both from those outside the industry, and from those abusing or exploiting the girls.

Do they still have sex therapists these days? You know the ones I mean, not the talkers.

[feral chile]

And vice versa.

[kaosmark2]

Quite, if you mean women appreciating a beautiful man etc.

[feral chile]

and the environment that creates, and pretty much encourages those attitudes

I would imagine so....

Edited February 10, 2012 by feral chile

[eFestivals]

Mind you, I'm Welsh, so I don't have a lot of sophisticated men to compare him with!

perhaps it's just because the sheep are better looking?