Christenings

[Rufus Gwertigan]

You will be sending your kid the message that rather than stand up for your beliefs it is best to just tow the line. Personally if this had occured to me the worst case scenario would be for me not to attend.

Although not the same but when I joined up I declared I was an atheist. They could not handle it and I would get all manner of grief and beastings when I did not attend church parade. An easier life would have been to tow the line.

There are ways that this can happen without you having to compromise your belief.

[Ed209]

You will be sending your kid the message that rather than stand up for your beliefs it is best to just tow the line.

[rachbon]

compromising doesn't work in every situation though. if you feel strongly about your beliefs then why should you just give in and go along with something that you are totally against?

of course you need to teach children that you won't always get your own way and sometimes you have to compomise, but they should also be taught to stand by their beliefs. you can't just go through life pretending to agree with everyone to avoid conflict.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

That is a terrible view to take... Stances like that lead to wars and heartache...

It teaches your kid the power of compromise... Staunching digging your heals in saying no, no, no is rarely a positive response and just leads to greater conflict...

[eFestivals]

Agree 100% but whats not Christening a child going to prove?

it's going to prove to your child that you really mean it when you say there's no god.

If religion is about personal choice then let it be about personal choice by having the kid choose themselves rather than have the choice made for it by the parents.

There is nothing benign about putting the idea on a child that they have religious beliefs.

[eFestivals]

That's bullshit. There's plenty of chance in the kids growing, outside of those 15 minutes in church, to dispell any notion of that.

If religion is so harmless and people are able to make their own minds up about religious belief, why do religions want to "welcome" babies into their church, and have people solemnly promise to indoctrinate the child about that religion?

The religions aren't daft. They know that getting them early is half the job done - and that a religious society will do most of the other half of the job.

If a person REALLY wants their kid to make their own choice, then that kid needs to be allowed to make their own choice.

Having parents put religion onto a child means that the child is forced to reject something of their parents if they want to 'make their own choice' - which makes it less than their own choice.

[rachbon]

Agreed...

Is this really the moment to go up against the whole of her family and more importantly her ?

We can't answer that I suppose...

Edited April 10, 2012 by _rachelbon

[Ed209]

If religion is so harmless and people are able to make their own minds up about religious belief, why do religions want to "welcome" babies into their church, and have people solemnly promise to indoctrinate the child about that religion?

The religions aren't daft. They know that getting them early is half the job done - and that a religious society will do most of the other half of the job.

If a person REALLY wants their kid to make their own choice, then that kid needs to be allowed to make their own choice.

Having parents put religion onto a child means that the child is forced to reject something of their parents if they want to 'make their own choice' - which makes it less than their own choice.

[eFestivals]

Am I going to try and make that argument to her and her family? No. They would just switch off and it would cause a row & I would come across as being a dick - so what's the point?

the point is that you have no less right to have your child brought up how you want as its mother does.

The words above say that you've already submitted. So what's the point of this thread?

My kid doesn't need standing up for against the church, it's not going to be brought up to just accept things on faith, so it doesn't need defending.

you say that your child is "not going to be brought up to just accept things on faith".

Oh yeah? .... when it's father is very definitely accepting things on faith - such as by having the child christened - then why do you think the kid turn out different to the father?

It's not that black and white though is it? You can't just say "I'm right and you're wrong, end of story" and expect someone to accept it.

What is black and white is that religion is a personal belief.

So there doesn't have to be an argument with your missus about which of you is right about religion. Instead, let the child choose for itself when it's an adult.

If your missus has more than two brain cells she should be able to go with that idea, because any other approach means that she doesn't think religion is a personal belief but instead it's something that she wants to force onto the child.

You not wanting the child christened means only that you're allowing the child to make its own choice.

[russycarps]

the wife probably just wants a party and a load of free presents. Good for her.

atheists can be just as tedious as religious fanatics I think. See Richard Dawkins for further details.

Edited April 10, 2012 by russycarps

[The Nal]

atheists can be just as tedious as religious fanatics I think. See Richard Dawkins for further details.

[eFestivals]

Its a baby ffs. The actual christening is going to have zero impact on its upbringing and what kind of a person it turns out to be.

Its what the parents do for the next 18 years that's important

WRONG!!!

The kid will grow up being told and knowing that it's meant to be a Christian. The very proof of the baggage that leaves on a child is shown by every survey about religion, where less than 5% go to Church but 70-ish % say they're Christian.

"Thou shall not deny thy god" (or whatever it is exactly) - it's an extremely powerful subliminal message, and one that religions know the value of .... otherwise, why do they want babies to get signed up at the earliest opportunity?

Telling the kid for the next 18 years "I'm an atheist" will always be undermined by the fact of having stood up and declared yourself AND the child a Christian.

[eFestivals]

atheists can be just as tedious as religious fanatics I think. See Richard Dawkins for further details.

I don't disagree, but there's nothing of that within this scenario.

It is not fanatical about anything to do nothing - which is all an atheist is wanting.

It is fanatical to want to sign a baby up to a religion, and to have others promise to indoctrinate that child with religion.

Doing nothing is not fanatical.

[russycarps]

Couldn't finish The God Delusion. We get it!! You don't believe in God.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

That's bullshit. There's plenty of chance in the kids growing, outside of those 15 minutes in church, to dispell any notion of that.

[russycarps]

I don't disagree, but there's nothing of that within this scenario.

It is not fanatical about anything to do nothing - which is all an atheist is wanting.

It is fanatical to want to sign a baby up to a religion, and to have others promise to indoctrinate that child with religion.

Doing nothing is not fanatical.

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Is your child a boy? Good job your wife isnt Jewish *snip snip* ;-)

[Ed209]

WRONG!!!

The kid will grow up being told and knowing that it's meant to be a Christian. The very proof of the baggage that leaves on a child is shown by every survey about religion, where less than 5% go to Church but 70-ish % say they're Christian.

"Thou shall not deny thy god" (or whatever it is exactly) - it's an extremely powerful subliminal message, and one that religions know the value of .... otherwise, why do they want babies to get signed up at the earliest opportunity?

Telling the kid for the next 18 years "I'm an atheist" will always be undermined by the fact of having stood up and declared yourself AND the child a Christian.

[Ed209]

But this is not 15 minutes is it. It is him having to attend church and bible classes as well.

[eFestivals]

I think you're massively overstating the significance of a christening. Seems like atheist scaremongering to me

If I'm over-stating it, why are the churches so very damn keen to sign up babies?

If it's not so important for them to do that, why do they do it? There's a VERY real purpose to their methods. Those methods don't exist by chance.

It is far harder to throw off even the mildest indoctrination than you're believing. The indoctrination is such that it's a mental process not far different from a real consideration of committing suicide.

[Hello... I'm Johnny Cash]

I agree, but I am convinced this scenario is just his wife wanting a party with her mates and some free presents. I doubt religion will ever be mentioned in their house again after this

[Hello... I'm Johnny Cash]

It is far harder to throw off even the mildest indoctrination than you're believing. The indoctrination is such that it's a mental process not far different from a real consideration of committing suicide.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Hello... I'm Johnny Cash

[The Nal]

For the record I was Christened and when I rejected it all... nobody noticed. It even took my Mum 3 or 4 years.

[Ed209]

I'm godparent for my nephew, as his christening present I gave him a load of books that included (among some novels, complete works of shakespeare, hungry caterpillar etc...) The Bible, Quran, Brivada Gita, Origins of Species, Selfish Gene and Brief History of time ... while I don't expect him to necessarily read them, and certainly not when he's a year old, it was more of a symbolic "here's all the information you need, go make your own mind up".

[eFestivals]

Spot on.

It's going to be brought up by a Mum that in 15 years has mentioned it once and by a Dad that constantly has a pop science book on the go, owns and has read every book written by Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, constantly watches nature & space docs on the telly, subscribes to New Scientist and has the Sceptics Guide podcast automatically synced to his iPhone.

Neil's rantings are valid in a household or environment where the kid could go either way it's no coincidence that Jesus said something along the lines of "Give me the boy and I'll give you the man", but frankly if this baby grows up to be a theist it's going to be a miracle (pun intended).

They can have their day, providing that I'm not personally involved in the religious part. I'm going to try and reason with the Vicar, end of the day he's not going to want to potentially let one slip through the net, neither is he likely to want me to stand in front of his God and tell a pack of lies.

If the Vicar won't compromise then no dice, that's not my fault. I'll be able to say that I was willing to meet them / him well over half way. Nothing more I can do.

Childbirth does funny things to people. The wackiest people suddenly become all mumsy. The most immoral are suddenly giving the impression that they'd nerver dropped their knickers out of wedlock. Etc, etc. etc..... so thinking that because you'd never heard religion mentioned before means it won't be mentioned again is a HUGE leap of faith .... you know, the faith thing you said you didn't do.

If she wants a party, why the need for god? Talk her into having a humanist ceremony. What's that, she won't do it? Then it's 100% about the religion.

My rantings are valid for all places. Are you foolishly thinking that he'd only encounter god pressure in your house?

Your ability to influence his thoughts is at all times and all places - and you've just influenced him unthinkingly towards god. You're mugging yourself if you think differently.

They can have their day, providing that I'm not personally involved in the religious part.

You have to promise to bring your son up as a Christian. You can't skip that bit.

Well you can, but it'll involve you having all the arguments you say you'll do anything to avoid - you know, like pretending there's a god.

And when does that need to avoid an argument come around next time? When your kid wants to be in the nativity play, where he also tells you about what a joyous occasion it was when the little baby Jesus was born? Etc, etc, etc.

You are starting yourself down a road where your kid has religion forced onto him, and where you have limited ability to undermine it. You are starting down a road where your missus will be entitled to give you a dirty look when you tell your child there is no god, and where you'll shut up to avoid the argument you don't have the bottle to have now so won't have the bottle to have in the future. You are starting down the road where your child will be forced to reject something that everything in his life has said is real - including you - if in future you wish him to reject god.

I'm confident that people only believe in things like Gods because they were brought up accept them as a child, that isn't going to be the case with mine.

You were brought up to accept the views of the religious over your own - or at least that's what your logic here says.

Which gets to mean that you'll be doing the exact same thing with your child, and there's no guarantee that the outcome will be the same as yours.

You are making it more likely that your child will be religious, and that his free will counts for less in his thoughts. That's not compromise, that's the result that religion has aimed for and is wanting - and is most likely to get.