Euthanasia and the Right to Die.

[eFestivals]

No, I'm saying that everything we're talking about is in the legal sense. There is no other sense in which we're talking.

Then you are saying "it's the law, and we can't change the law".

We know what the fucking law is your moron. The whole point is that, in relation to Tony N, the law has been a complete and utter arse, and has discriminated against Tony because of his disability.

[worm]

No, only YOU need a reference, because you're clearly pontificating on a subject you know little about.

Come back when you've done some research so you actually know what you're talking about.

Edited September 6, 2012 by worm

[worm]

Then you are saying "it's the law, and we can't change the law".

[worm]

To repeat....

It's this simple: If you grant a disabled person the right to commit suicide then you grant everyone the right to commit suicide, which means suicide centres, drugs to commit suicide, pamphlets on suicide, counsellors to give you the correct approaches to suicide, illegal suicides, back-street and black market suicide and so on and so forth.

Wake up Neil. There is no right to suicide given to us by the state. It is simply something we can do; it is a natural right.

Stop pretending that the issue is simply about the disabled when it isn't.

[eFestivals]

Glad to see that you only do the simple minded, and that you're not able to think beyond "it's the law and we can't change the law else illegal things would be allowed" Jack Straw styleee.

No thought, just prejudices.

[eFestivals]

suicide .... It is simply something we can do; it is a natural right.

"a natural right" - a right that you wish to take away from disabled people. Because they're not natural.

You really are scum, aren't you?

Edited September 6, 2012 by eFestivals

[worm]

Glad to see that you only do the simple minded, and that you're not able to think beyond "it's the law and we can't change the law else illegal things would be allowed" Jack Straw styleee.

Edited September 6, 2012 by worm

[worm]

"a natural right" - a right that you wish to take away from disabled people.

[eFestivals]

Nature did that Neil, not me or the state. Nature.

go on then, practice what you preach and let the poor fuckers die of starvation because nature has made them unable to feed themselves.

Or is it that your rationale has now changed, and you'll work against nature to feed them when they want feeding but not with other things?

Which is primary? Stupid laws - natural &/or man made - or sense?

I see that stupid wins with you.

So address the implications of legalising suicide for the rest of society.

I don't have to. It's already legal by the fact that it's not illegal.

And the facts of history gets to show that legalising suicide had no effects onto society whatsoever, nothing at all that could be measured.

So all you talk is bollocks.

Or are you only going to let the disabled have access to it?

No, I'm wanting to give disabled people the same access as the abled already have you stupid arsehole.

It's you that wishes to discriminate, by only letting the abled have access to it.

Edited September 6, 2012 by eFestivals

[worm]

go on then, practice what you preach and let the poor fuckers die of starvation because nature has made them unable to feed themselves.

Edited September 6, 2012 by worm

[worm]

I don't have to. It's already legal by the fact that it's not illegal.

Edited September 6, 2012 by worm

[worm]

No, I'm wanting to give disabled people the same access as the abled already have you stupid arsehole.

Edited September 6, 2012 by worm

[eFestivals]

I'm not preaching anything of the sort! I'm pointing out the 'fact' of the matter that it is nature, not the state, that has made the person disabled. Cease your emotive bullshit if you wish to discuss rationally.

Yes, nature has made the person disabled.

Just because nature has done that, do we then leave that person to die as a result of nature, or do we enabled that person not to have to be controlled by only nature?

We of course enable them.

To then say "but in one particular case, you don't get the choice over your life, instead *I* get the choice over your life" is the attitude of a self-serving scumbag who only wishes to control that person.

I agree with all possible assistance to the disabled in relation to equal rights. But suicide isn't a right

Suicide *IS* a right. There is nothing to stop anybody exercising that right, except for the likes of Tony N (who would need assistance, in the exact same way he needs assistance to feed).

I'm not sure it should be.

I know. This attitude clouds all of your thinking on this issue, to the point where you are unable to think instead letting your prejudices take control.

The decision to suicide in an abled person is 100% identical as it is with a disabled person. It's only the ability to carry it out which is different.

An abled person is able to carry out their wish. Unless someone wishes to control others for their own purposes, there is absolutely no reason why the same wish from the same consideration and conclusion should be denied to some but not others.

[worm]

Yes, nature has made the person disabled.

[worm]

Suicide *IS* a right. There is nothing to stop anybody exercising that right, except for the likes of Tony N (who would need assistance, in the exact same way he needs assistance to feed).

[eFestivals]

Wrong.

If the state creates a law thereby making something legal it means that everyone is privy to it.

And likewise, if the state unmakes a law thereby making something legal it means that everyone is privy to it.

After all, it's every individual's civic duty to know the law, as made plain by the legal concept that ignorance of the law is no excuse in law for having committed an offence.

That is a concept that by default applies in both directions, because by knowing what rules or restrictions you are required to abide by you also by default come to know what there are no rules or restrictions for.

So yo9u have a logically flawed argument here, that is of zero worth.

If the state made suicide legal it would have to have an institution set up to safe-guard legal suicide and to police illegal suicide.

Address these issues.....

I have you thick plank.

The state *HAS* made suicide legal.

As I posted a page ago: come back when you have the first idea what you're talking about.

[worm]

I know.

[worm]

And likewise, if the state unmakes a law thereby making something legal it means that everyone is privy to it.

[worm]

As I posted a page ago: come back when you have the first idea what you're talking about.

[eFestivals]

That's fine, but you'll have to address the implications that I've put to you. It's all well and good being idealistic and righteous, and in spirit I'd agree, but there's a very good reason it hasn't been made legal and I'm asking you to address these issues.

Stop being 'right on' and look at the actual issues involved in what you're spouting.

Yep, there is a "very good reason" that Tony was denied the assistance he required to die peacefully: prejudice, control, stupidity, and an understanding of the words of the law without any understanding of the intention of the law.

'Murder' - the assistance Tony needed - can be either:

1. causing the death of someone

2. causing the death of someone who didn't wish to die.

Which is it?

Go on, say '1' and prove how stupid you are of the law as a whole.

[eFestivals]

So we're talking about the legal sense only then aren't we. Only law can help this person. That's all I was fucking saying! There is no sense other than legal in which we are talking!

No, I'm not talking about the legal sense. Or at least, not exclusively about the legal sense.

Mostly when I talk about the legal sense I'm saying its an ass, that it's failing to join up the dots of itself into a consistent application - with how it discriminated against Tony by applying one particular definition of murder which is not applied thru-out the rest of the legal system.

The particular definition of murder it used against Tony is a definition that is either borne out of stupidity, or out of a wish to control. Whichever one of these it is, it exorcises that control.

[eFestivals]

How many more times!

That doesn't make it a legal right! It makes it a natural right. If you want to make it a legal right then address the issues I've laid before you because they will have to come into force.

they're only necessary if the world is full of people as stupid as you.

I've addressed the issues countless times. Isn't it funny how you don't choose to quote those bits back at me, instead picking out a different snippet to make your continual stupid demands that I address what I've already addressed.

Still, it stops you looking stupid in not being able to yourself address what I've said, eh? Except it doesn't of course. You just keep proving your prejudice, and the fact that you know the psychological basis you're giving is laughable.

[eFestivals]

No it doesn't. It makes it susceptible to natural law i.e. people can do whatever they like.

People have a civic duty to know the law. By default that means they have the same civic duty to know what is not covered by law.

So stop bleating on about how there has to be state structure if people know about their right (legal or natural, it matters not a fuck) to suicide. They know about their right to suicide already, and there's no need of any state structure.

There is no law on suicide Neil.

Address the issues. You've avoided them each and every time. They are the sole reason this case was rejected.

there is a stance by law towards suicide - that it is not against the law.

This has been SPECIFICALLY AND EXPLICITLY stated by law, via the abolishion of the law which made suicide or attempted suicide a crime in law.

The sole reason that Tony's court case was not won had absolutely fuck all to do with any of that.

[worm]

they're only necessary if the world is full of people as stupid as you.

I've addressed the issues countless times. Isn't it funny how you don't choose to quote those bits back at me, instead picking out a different snippet to make your continual stupid demands that I address what I've already addressed.

Still, it stops you looking stupid in not being able to yourself address what I've said, eh? Except it doesn't of course. You just keep proving your prejudice, and the fact that you know the psychological basis you're giving is laughable.

[eFestivals]

glad to see you've addressed what I've said.