Football 2013-2014

[thetime]

Another couple of interesting weeks for arsenal with city away and Chelsea. They could find themself of the top quite easily, especially with city's home form.

United back to what they do best, playing shit and scraping a win. Quite strange that we are doing really well(average group) in Europe, unbeaten and only conceded 3 goals but dodgy in prem.

At the start of the season people were saying it would be the other way around, moyes having virtually no European experience.

[eFestivals]

Of course anything could happen, Chelsea and Man City could lose their benefactors. New teams could find an oligarch looking to throw money at them. Forget for a second what you think could but may not happen, what do you think actually will happen? The idea that Man United will be mid-tabling with villa and WBA just doesn't seem likely to me.

Given the last 20 years it's hard to see anything but more of the same.... but back twenty years ago, there was the same idea around another club that turned out to be hugely hugely wrong. Has that passed you by?

It's incredibly difficult to say what will happen because the Glazers haven't revealed enough of themselves for anyone to do more than make a wild guess (at any outcome - some of what I've suggested, or continuing success which appears to be the only option that Utd fans can see).

But ... they have shown no willingness to invest in the decade they've owned the club, and every indicator strongly suggests that that has been the case because they have no money to invest with.

Plus .. you don't buy Man Utd if you're a financial risk-taker. It's the safe option.

So will they take a massive financial risk by investing money they don't have which runs a massive risk of losing them absolutely everything (not just Utd)? I find that have to imagine.

Without investment and without luck, the only way is a downward spiral.

I think some are guilty of over exageratting Man utds demise. They may need a significant investment to compete with the squad of Chelsea and City, but even with their current squad they should be competitive with the squads of Liverpool, Everton and Spurs.

in the Glazers/Utd's financial position, being competitive is not enough to keep things steady. They need a guarantee of CL footie, or they need to make massive financial adjustments to how the significantly lower income is used at the club.

If they don't get champions league football next season its unlikely that whoever replaces them (considering none are going to throw money away) will pull away from Man Utd and any of those 3 will probably find their squad stretched by a champions league campaign while Utd would purely concentrate on the league.

If that's anything meaningful, Liverpool are guaranteed 4th this year.

Other European giants have missed out on the champions league and survived

all other European giants have either govt subsidies or sugar daddies. Utd have neither.

The big things in Man Utd favour is that Liverpool, Spurs and Everton don't want to make huge losses which reduces their chances of pulling away.

Eh?

You're right about Everton. They have nothing to spend if they wanted to.

You're right about Spurs. Joe wants profit more than he wants success.

Liverpool? I refer you to the massive investments made in the last couple of years, and which I have no doubts will continue if they make the CL this season until they are one "CL guaranteed". That's the FSG financial plan.

(if they don't make it this season then perhaps that plan will change).

I have no doubt that Man Utd will continue to be financially competitive with everyone outside City and Chelsea and will continue to challenge at the upper end of the English pyramid.

they're the only club at the top where profit is more important than performance. They're the only club at the top who have owners who have shown a long-term unwillingness to invest. They're the only club at the top with massive debts that *have to be* serviced.

These are the factors who Utd fans - and you - are sweeping under the carpet as nothings, that they/you think will have no impact on Utd in a different league and financial position.

What the exact impact will be is hard to guess at, but there WILL be an impact. Utd will not carry on as they have been doing.

Edited December 11, 2013 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Quite strange that we are doing really well(average group) in Europe

I think you've answered your own question there.

[eFestivals]

Oh yeah, I don't think Man U will be back near the title anytime soon, I just don't think they're going end up in crisis freefall. Certainly not due to one season out of the Champions League.

PMSL ... yeah, cos it's a guarantee that it'll be just the one season, eh?

At the start of this season it was guaranteed they'd make top 4 this season. While it's not yet done and dusted that guarantee means nothing to anyone now.

This is the point. Without CL it's a whole new ball game for Utd, where everything is changed.

[pink_triangle]

Given the last 20 years it's hard to see anything but more of the same.... but back twenty years ago, there was the same idea around another club that turned out to be hugely hugely wrong. Has that passed you by?

It's incredibly difficult to say what will happen because the Glazers haven't revealed enough of themselves for anyone to do more than make a wild guess (at any outcome - some of what I've suggested, or continuing success which appears to be the only option that Utd fans can see).

But ... they have shown no willingness to invest in the decade they've owned the club, and every indicator strongly suggests that that has been the case because they have no money to invest with.

Plus .. you don't buy Man Utd if you're a financial risk-taker. It's the safe option.

So will they take a massive financial risk by investing money they don't have which runs a massive risk of losing them absolutely everything (not just Utd)? I find that have to imagine.

Without investment and without luck, the only way is a downward spiral.

in the Glazers/Utd's financial position, being competitive is not enough to keep things steady. They need a guarantee of CL footie, or they need to make massive financial adjustments to how the significantly lower income is used at the club.

If that's anything meaningful, Liverpool are guaranteed 4th this year.

all other European giants have either govt subsidies or sugar daddies. Utd have neither.

Eh?

You're right about Everton. They have nothing to spend if they wanted to.

You're right about Spurs. Joe wants profit more than he wants success.

Liverpool? I refer you to the massive investments made in the last couple of years, and which I have no doubts will continue if they make the CL this season until they are one "CL guaranteed". That's the FSG financial plan.

(if they don't make it this season then perhaps that plan will change).

they're the only club at the top where profit is more important than performance. They're the only club at the top who have owners who have shown a long-term unwillingness to invest. They're the only club at the top with massive debts that *have to be* serviced.

These are the factors who Utd fans - and you - are sweeping under the carpet as nothings, that they/you think will have no impact on Utd in a different league and financial position.

What the exact impact will be is hard to guess at, but there WILL be an impact. Utd will not carry on as they have been doing.

[Wooderson]

Utd this season remind me of LFC in '05.

[eFestivals]

I know exactly what happened to liverpool, they went from a team competing for titles to one fighting around th 4-7th margin. It wasnt a downward spiral, it wouldnt surprise me if this happened to Man Utd, I dont expect them to fall any lower.

It was a downward spiral as soon as they fell out of the chumps the last time, as they were dependent on that money for financial stability. There's the same dependency at Utd.

If Utd are having to balance the books without outside investment then down is the only possible way.

Liverpool will invest if they reach the champions league, but I dont think they will invest at the money necessary to guarantee champions league football, as that is city/chelsea type money which would mean operating at a loss. The liverpool owners are not the "sugar daddy" they are looking to make money out of the club, which means they wont have an unlimitted pot.

No club needs to compete financially to be at around the same level as Chelsea/City, as Arsenal and Utd have been proving. But you do need a plan.

City and Chelsea waste loads of money, buying players they don't need. Just look at who they've got out on loan as an easy illustration of that.

Arsenal are the exception, having found a 'youth' plan that works for them - tho that has also cost them success.

Utd's plan had been to sustain themselves, something which isn't too expensive to do once you're up there and there's a settled scenario (as there was under fergie). Once you're not sustaining yourselves then that plan is out of the window.

To build yourself back up on limited money - or even quite a lot of it in Liverpool's case (and Spurs' failed attempts) - is not so easy. You need to get lucky with a player (Bale, and Suarez) or more to help you, and most managers are pretty fallible when buying so there's no guarantee that what they try will work (Dalglish, for example).

For it to work how you're thinking takes a number of parts all slotting together at the right time, and generally no one is that lucky at the first try.

Too much of what is being said for what happens to Utd if they fall out of the CL is based on 'business as usual' when there's no guarantee that's what will happen (and plenty to suggest it can't happen), and on best-case-scenarios for whatever they do.

I just can't see luck and circumstances falling so easily in anyone's favour.

[The Nal]

Utd this season remind me of LFC in '05.

[eFestivals]

Unfortunately not. Weren't great last night at all. Will get steamrolled by any decent team with that midfield.

every time I've seen Utd this season the most striking thing has been just how much Rooney is carrying the rest of the team.

[Bobs]

every time I've seen Utd this season the most striking thing has been just how much Rooney is carrying the rest of the team.

[pink_triangle]

It was a downward spiral as soon as they fell out of the chumps the last time, as they were dependent on that money for financial stability. There's the same dependency at Utd.

If Utd are having to balance the books without outside investment then down is the only possible way.

No club needs to compete financially to be at around the same level as Chelsea/City, as Arsenal and Utd have been proving. But you do need a plan.

City and Chelsea waste loads of money, buying players they don't need. Just look at who they've got out on loan as an easy illustration of that.

Arsenal are the exception, having found a 'youth' plan that works for them - tho that has also cost them success.

Utd's plan had been to sustain themselves, something which isn't too expensive to do once you're up there and there's a settled scenario (as there was under fergie). Once you're not sustaining yourselves then that plan is out of the window.

To build yourself back up on limited money - or even quite a lot of it in Liverpool's case (and Spurs' failed attempts) - is not so easy. You need to get lucky with a player (Bale, and Suarez) or more to help you, and most managers are pretty fallible when buying so there's no guarantee that what they try will work (Dalglish, for example).

For it to work how you're thinking takes a number of parts all slotting together at the right time, and generally no one is that lucky at the first try.

Too much of what is being said for what happens to Utd if they fall out of the CL is based on 'business as usual' when there's no guarantee that's what will happen (and plenty to suggest it can't happen), and on best-case-scenarios for whatever they do.

I just can't see luck and circumstances falling so easily in anyone's favour.

[LondonTom]

Looks like there might be a Pandora's box about to open in football: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/former-england-captain-mick-mills-turned-a-blind-eye-to-initiation-ceremony-abuse-at-stoke-city-which-included-sexual-assault-dubbed-the-glove-8995903.html

While wrong, the defense does make sense that we are judging by today's standards something that happened a while ago.

Edited December 11, 2013 by LondonTom

[The Nal]

every time I've seen Utd this season the most striking thing has been just how much Rooney is carrying the rest of the team.

[eFestivals]

Looks like there might be a Pandora's box about to open in football: http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/former-england-captain-mick-mills-turned-a-blind-eye-to-initiation-ceremony-abuse-at-stoke-city-which-included-sexual-assault-dubbed-the-glove-8995903.html

While wrong, the defense does make sense that we are judging by today's standards something that happened a while ago.

First they came for the 70s,

and I didn't speak out because ...

[eFestivals]

I'm all for sticking with homegrown youth or just youth and giving them a fair chance.

But Welbeck and Cleverly. 23 and 24 now and no real signs of stepping up to Utd standard.

That's the thing. Once the oldies are shuffled off, and the likes of Welbeck and Cleverly and Young and Nani and Anderson and Jones and Smalling are demoted to squad players at best, what's left for the first 11?

[Bobs]

RVP seemed to carry Utd at times last season too. But behind him then it was solid if not spectacular. This season is a disaster once the play drops in behind Rooney. Headless chickens.

I'm all for sticking with homegrown youth or just youth and giving them a fair chance. I think its what separates clubs like Utd, Liverpool, Barca, Milan etc from clubs like Chelski and City and even Real Madrid.

But Welbeck and Cleverly. 23 and 24 now and no real signs of stepping up to Utd standard. At 24, Scholes was one of the best players in a treble winning season. At the same age Gerrard was leading his team to a Champions League trophy.

And Gerrard isn't even a top, top player!

[kaosmark2]

Who remembers when Cleverley was the great saviour of English football?

[The Nal]

That's the thing. Once the oldies are shuffled off, and the likes of Welbeck and Cleverly and Young and Nani and Anderson and Jones and Smalling are demoted to squad players at best, what's left for the first 11?

[The Nal]

I thought every one but Woy could see that Welbeck and Cleverley are awful footballers?

[eFestivals]

In the alternative universe where Utd never signed skippy, I wonder where Utd are in that Premier League?

[The Nal]

In the alternative universe where Utd never signed skippy, I wonder where Utd are in that Premier League?

Edited December 11, 2013 by The Nal

[lharris92]

just seen that they've announce the fa cup game (forest vs west ham) for 12pm sunday. smart decision, they should surely know that the first train from london gets in after kick off. annoyed by this but will still be going

[pink_triangle]

I thought every one but Woy could see that Welbeck and Cleverley are awful footballers? There just isn't anything in the middle to salvage United, it says a lot when your most creative player is Giggs, who is now 40! United got hugely lucky with their class of '92, and any team should have been envious, but for me, that was never going to last, and everything should have been set about making a HUGE difference to the team starting 3-5 years ago, Bebe? Nani? Anderson? Young? Welbeck? Cleverley? The warning signs were clearly there, and it almost feels like SAF knew and bailed cause he wanted to go out on a high note, so why make the standards slip?

As for Scholes and Gerrard, they're monumentally class players in their day, Gerrard in particular, was unplayable for a good 8-12 months, Scholes around 2002-2005 was just a machine, and one of the best in the world. A amazing Pro also.

Either way, it'll be interesting to see how United strenghten in January, because they need to drastically.

[pink_triangle]

RVP seemed to carry Utd at times last season too. But behind him then it was solid if not spectacular. This season is a disaster once the play drops in behind Rooney. Headless chickens.

I'm all for sticking with homegrown youth or just youth and giving them a fair chance. I think its what separates clubs like Utd, Liverpool, Barca, Milan etc from clubs like Chelski and City and even Real Madridr!

[thetime]

I'm not sure Liverpool are the best example for a side sticking with youth. They haven't produced a regular first team starter for 10 plus years! To me if your a young player today you should be avoiding the big names like the plague. They may sound glamorous but you are much better off learning the ropes at a villa or a southampton.

I have no doubt when Rodgers joined Liverpool he had this nice idea about pushing all these young (what ever happened to suso?) players through. However reality soon crept in and the chances for the young players dramatically reduced. Not that I blame him, that kind of policy shift would take years to work and Rodgers would be out of the door labelled a failure before it got results.