Football 2013-2014

[kaosmark2]

There is big things expected at united from Powell, lingard, the keane brothers next season.

[thetime]

Each club has youth players they expect big things from. What is important is how many actually break through.

[kaosmark2]

Which is the maddening thing for me.

People want big transfers which will put these kids on the backfoot and less chance to progress. This in turn will leave the kids no time to progress and no alternative to leave the club.

[eFestivals]

If Gary Neville and David Beckham came through another youth team Im not convinced they would have ended up being more than Danny Mills or Trevor Sinclair.

didn't they both come thru another youth set-up before going to Utd?

(I'm 99% that Neville did, not entirely sure about Becks).

[eFestivals]

Saying that I don't necessarily agree that players shouldn't go to the big clubs as youth players. They have the best set ups, best coaches and you only gave to look how many ex man utd players are plying there trade in the premier league and champions ship for this.

I'd say that there's solid proof that the biggest clubs DON'T have the best coaches, because so very few youngsters make the big time via those big clubs youth set-ups. Don't forget, those biggest clubs are getting the most-rated kids in the first place.

As for the 'success' that many ex Utd kids have had elsewhere, there's been sod all that's particularly noticable, and mostly that 'success' has come about by fergie mugging his ex-players who are now managers, or by managers being over-impressed by a "played for man utd" tag.

The 'success' of those ex Utd players has mostly been in the over-lap between Prem and Champs, with relegation/promotion yo-yo sides.

The current reserve league/u21 doesn't seem to work though, the thing that seems to work is players who get sent to championship clubs on loan. There is big things expected at united from Powell, lingard, the keane brothers next season.

And there were big things expected of Mechada (sp?), Fraizer, Welbeck, Cleverley, and a whole host of other mediocre players - the Utd fans posting here have named so very many kids with big futures over the years and not a single one of them (that I'm able to remember at this moment, anyway) has been a big success.

It's not just Utd tho. The same is true of most others, the big exception being Arsenal.

[pink_triangle]

didn't they both come thru another youth set-up before going to Utd?

(I'm 99% that Neville did, not entirely sure about Becks).

[pink_triangle]

I'd say that there's solid proof that the biggest clubs DON'T have the best coaches, because so very few youngsters make the big time via those big clubs youth set-ups. Don't forget, those biggest clubs are getting the most-rated kids in the first place.

[5co77ie]

didn't they both come thru another youth set-up before going to Utd?

(I'm 99% that Neville did, not entirely sure about Becks).

[LondonTom]

They have the best set ups, best coaches and you only gave to look how many ex man utd players are plying there trade in the premier league and champions ship for this.

[kaosmark2]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25342229

Good news for any Newcastle fan, bad news for any MotD fan.

[dentalplan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25342229

Good news for any Newcastle fan, bad news for any MotD fan.

[kaosmark2]

I was quite saddened to read that. I wouldn't give him even a little of the blame for their relegation, and he seemed cut out for future long term management at the club

[pink_triangle]

I was quite saddened to read that. I wouldn't give him even a little of the blame for their relegation, and he seemed cut out for future long term management at the club

[kaosmark2]

The only way he was cut out for managing Newcastle was by his birth certificate. You only have to watch motd to know he doesn't have a great understanding of the game.

[eFestivals]

You only have to watch motd to know he doesn't have a great understanding of the game.

I'd say that very very very VERY few people do. As in: no one.

You only have to look at just how much even the people who are labelled as knowledgeable get wrong to see that their own understanding is severely limited.

Chances are that had fergie moved onto another club after a decade or more of Utd success, he'd have failed. That's how it tends to go for even the most rated of people.

And if TGT wants an argument about this, I'll just refer him to his own drooling comments about Scolari, Postman Pat, and many others thru the years.

[kaosmark2]

I'd say that very very very VERY few people do. As in: no one.

You only have to look at just how much even the people who are labelled as knowledgeable get wrong to see that their own understanding is severely limited.

Chances are that had fergie moved onto another club after a decade or more of Utd success, he'd have failed. That's how it tends to go for even the most rated of people.

And if TGT wants an argument about this, I'll just refer him to his own drooling comments about Scolari, Postman Pat, and many others thru the years.

[The Nal]

I'd say that very very very VERY few people do. As in: no one.

You only have to look at just how much even the people who are labelled as knowledgeable get wrong to see that their own understanding is severely limited.

Chances are that had fergie moved onto another club after a decade or more of Utd success, he'd have failed. That's how it tends to go for even the most rated of people.

And if TGT wants an argument about this, I'll just refer him to his own drooling comments about Scolari, Postman Pat, and many others thru the years.

[eFestivals]

Not many are as bad as Shearer though.

I wouldn't disagree with that.

The great managers win at most clubs they go to. Fergie, Trappatoni, Capello, Clough etc and more recently Ancelotti, Mourinho....

I think, to a large extent, that's luck rolling in their favour - just as the manager who fucks up on their first job might actually make a great manager but never gets another chance. The laws of luck mean that some people will always have the best luck.

That's not me saying that there aren't some managers better than others, just that the best ones don't have the deep understanding of the game that some credit them with.

The success could be, for example, just down to them being good at something else, such as man-management. Fergie egging his team on for a win in the last minutes, with which he had great success? That's certainly man-management and not about a deep understanding of the game; if there was a much deeper understanding of the game by the likes of fergie then he'd not find himself in that position so regularly in the first place.

For me, there's too many fuck ups which would never happen if there was that deep understanding. I'd say it's more right-face in the right place at the right time with the right players, an 'aura of success' that breeds confidence into the players, man-management skills, money and resources, etc.

Tactics and an understanding of the game probably all factor less than those, when bearing in mind that anyone who manages a big club will already be well versed in tactics and have an understanding of the game from their prior involvement in football (I'm not saying a rank amateur like me could do it).

Edited December 12, 2013 by eFestivals

[The Nal]

For me, there's too many fuck ups which would never happen if there was that deep understanding. I'd say it's more right-face in the right place at the right time with the right players, an 'aura of success' that breeds confidence into the players, man-management skills, money and resources, etc.

Edited December 12, 2013 by The Nal

[pink_triangle]

I'd say that very very very VERY few people do. As in: no one.

You only have to look at just how much even the people who are labelled as knowledgeable get wrong to see that their own understanding is severely limited.

Chances are that had fergie moved onto another club after a decade or more of Utd success, he'd have failed. That's how it tends to go for even the most rated of people.

And if TGT wants an argument about this, I'll just refer him to his own drooling comments about Scolari, Postman Pat, and many others thru the years.

[The Nal]

Was at Fergies book tour thing in Dublin last month and he mostly spoke about motivating and managing players as opposed to tactics. Didn't talk about tactics at all really.

[eFestivals]

Agree to a certain extent but on that point theres also too many success stories for me to rule out a deep understanding of the game. Clough at Derby/Forest. Fergie at St Mirren/Aberdeen.

But that could so easily be better man management and not anything football. After all, what the manager works with primarily is footballers - people - and not football itself.

That's not me saying that the 'top' managers don't perhaps have some of the better understandings of footie - after all, some people will be the best and some people will be the worst - but it's probably the case with any 'normal' top-level manager (by that, I mean not the likes of inexperienced Shearer) that the differences in that knowledge and understanding are marginal with the experiences they've had in getting to that level.

Man management however is something that can vary massively, and how well it works can depend as much on who it is being applied to just as much as it does with who is applying it. There's not particularly one right style, but there's always a right style for the particular individuals being managed.

Which gets to explain (if there's more to it than just luck) why it is that a manager with a fantastic success record can spectacularly fuck up. If an understanding of football mattered more then it would always be at the fore and there couldn't be those fuck ups.

Edited December 12, 2013 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Was at Fergies book tour thing in Dublin last month and he mostly spoke about motivating and managing players as opposed to tactics. Didn't talk about tactics at all really.

I'd say we're seeing on a weekly basis that his ability to motivate was far superior to some others - at least, with those specific individuals.

Perhaps Moyes can achieve the same with a different set of players, whose character might better match his style of man-management.

[The Nal]

Get you yeah. The margins of difference in the understanding of the game are smaller amongst managers relative to - say - music. If you compare John Coltrane's understand of music to Noel Gallaghers for example. That gap doesn't exist in footie.

And on Moyes. Yeah. Hes getting two seasons from me. Regardless. Hes only in the gig just over 4 months. Glad he saw the need for a midfielder. But then he ruined it by going for Fabregas. And panic bought Fellaini. We'll see in Jan/summer what he does. He has to create his own team. I'll judge him then.

Provided he creates a half decent team!

Was thinking about this yesterday. I'm 34 so have never known Utd without Fergie really. But this is the first time I've seen a period of reflection at the club. Keano vs Fergie, Fergies book and tour, the class of 92 documentary, Giggs at 40 etc. Its natural after Fergie went but its an odd feeling. Ferguson was so good and building teams and always moving forward. And with the shite start to the season it has really separated that time at the club from now. A brave new world.

Edited December 12, 2013 by The Nal

[eFestivals]

And on Moyes. Yeah. Hes getting two seasons from me. Regardless. Hes only in the gig just over 4 months. Glad he saw the need for a midfielder. But then he ruined it by going for Fabregas. And panic bought Fellaini. We'll see in Jan/summer what he does. He has to create his own team. I'll judge him then.

don't go creaming yourself again , but there's been a lot of mention of your fav recently.

Mind you there was a story today saying he's not interested in Utd.

Ferguson was so good and building teams and always moving forward. And with the shite start to the season it has really separated that time at the club from now. A brave new world.

I've seen the suggestion elsewhere from a fair few Utd fans that leaving the squad in a state was part of his departure plan, so that a slump after he left made his time look even better.

It would take one hell of an ego to do that.

Edited December 12, 2013 by eFestivals