conforming as a nonconformist?

[eFestivals]

what? no-one has an indentity?

not in the way the idea gets commonly referenced, nope they don't.

As soon as you reference the idea on a personal basis, you become a sheep to the idea of identity rather than having the individual identity that you're attempting to consider about yourself.

It's this paradox: identity can only exist on a personal basis if you never consider the idea of identity in regard to yourself.

Because the moment that you start to consider the idea, you are contriving things so that your individual identity is lessened.

[kaosmark2]

He imagined that this was an ability he shared with most other
people....They had also molded their faced according to some
ideal....Maybe they imagined that their new face would better
suit their personality....Or maybe they imagined that their
personality would be forced to change to fit the new appear-
ance.

[eFestivals]

what? no-one has an indentity?

btw, I don't have a problem with the idea in a general sense ... tho in that general sense it's an utterly useless concept to all people except those who wish to market something at you - tho the successful attempt at that marketing ceases to be anything about identity and instead is merely a con-trick.

[fred quimby]

, there's no such thing as free will or freedom of thought?

*Aside*

I was speaking to someone the other day who said there have now been experiments to prove (or start proving there is not and most of it is predetined. They could predict exactly on what decissions you would make. I have asked them to point me in the direction of the finding but haven't heard from them yet

*Asisde*

Edited September 10, 2013 by fred quimby

[eFestivals]

you don't need to reference it to have it though, do you?

Correct ... but *true* identity cannot be identified (at least in reference to the self), despite that existence.

So it becomes pointless to think about it or reference it. It proves nothing of anything.

What it does do is convince people that their own lies to themselves are worth something - and i'm sure I don't need to point out the idiocy of that to you or anyone else.

The original question that was posed recognises all of this, via the truth that non-conformity is merely a conformity around a different thing.

Edited September 10, 2013 by eFestivals

[Katster]

I don't have tv and people think I'm a bit weird because of it. Why would I pay over a hundred pounds for something I don't use? Now that's weird.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

I don't have tv and people think I'm a bit weird because of it. Why would I pay over a hundred pounds for something I don't use? Now that's weird.

I think I must be that weirdo. I bought a flash telly a few years back, watched it for a month and then stopped watching telly at all for a number of years. I still paid the tv licence because I had a telly and wanted the ability to turn it on whenever I liked - even though I didn't do so.

[kaosmark2]

I think I must be that weirdo. I bought a flash telly a few years back, watched it for a month and then stopped watching telly at all for a number of years. I still paid the tv licence because I had a telly and wanted the ability to turn it on whenever I liked - even though I didn't do so.

I stopped bothering with a TV license a couple of years back. Only thing I ever watch live is football, and that I go to the pub for. Everything else I just get DVDs or catchup streams.

[feral chile]

That's the thing though isn't it - if you're different, you're weird. and although we have an ideal of individual freedom, we also have a need to belong. If you were truly unique, you wouldn't be able to have any sense of belonging.

No point of reference.

[guypjfreak]

i love the news channels .........strange isnt it you HATE your parents watching the six o'clock then the nine o'clock news and you swear ILL NEVER BE LIKE THAT then you get older and before you realise whats happened YOUR watching the bloody news but nowadays it can be 24/7 LOL

[feral chile]

I realised I'd turned into my nan when my daughter had her third child in under 3 years. I had done exactly the same, and my nan had reacted with concern instead of delight.

I did exactly the same thing without reflection, and realised too late how my daughter would feel.

[Spindles]

I stopped bothering with a TV license a couple of years back. Only thing I ever watch live is football, and that I go to the pub for. Everything else I just get DVDs or catchup streams.

9 years for me now and no regrets at all, like yourself it is just the football, which you can usually stream (I used to go to the pub but less so now, simply can't afford it)

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

That's the thing though isn't it - if you're different, you're weird. and although we have an ideal of individual freedom, we also have a need to belong. If you were truly unique, you wouldn't be able to have any sense of belonging.

No point of reference.

That would be a lonely existence. Perhaps why some self terminate.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

I realised I'd turned into my nan when my daughter had her third child in under 3 years. I had done exactly the same, and my nan had reacted with concern instead of delight.

I did exactly the same thing without reflection, and realised too late how my daughter would feel.

Presumably since you've realised what you have, that you have been able to publicly acknowledge it to her? Don't feel obliged to answer if it's not an area for discussion.

[kaosmark2]

9 years for me now and no regrets at all, like yourself it is just the football, which you can usually stream (I used to go to the pub but less so now, simply can't afford it)

Well I stream a lot of games, but streams are a bit cack and the pub is nicer to go to. It doesn't end up being that often as usually the game I want to watch isn't actually shown on tv over here, only in the US and Arab countries ridiculously...

[feral chile]

Presumably since you've realised what you have, that you have been able to publicly acknowledge it to her? Don't feel obliged to answer if it's not an area for discussion.

yes, we have talked about it since. I do tend to be open with my kids about my mistakes, even when they were growing up. I strongly believe that as a role model, you need to show that you can always learn from your mistakes.

You still can't take away that first reaction though, but I think that now she knows what it's like trying to deal with 3 such young children, she can see why I was concerned. There's a lot of toing and froing about how did you deal with this and that event etc.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

yes, we have talked about it since. I do tend to be open with my kids about my mistakes, even when they were growing up. I strongly believe that as a role model, you need to show that you can always learn from your mistakes.

You still can't take away that first reaction though, but I think that now she knows what it's like trying to deal with 3 such young children, she can see why I was concerned. There's a lot of toing and froing about how did you deal with this and that event etc.

Exactly, there were reasons why that initial reaction sprung to mind. Those reasons are valid in this instance. I wouldn't be so hard on yourself about it. As to the tooing and froing - that's part and parcel of taking the open stance you have with your children. I can think of much worse parenting.

[feral chile]

Exactly, there were reasons why that initial reaction sprung to mind. Those reasons are valid in this instance. I wouldn't be so hard on yourself about it. As to the tooing and froing - that's part and parcel of taking the open stance you have with your children. I can think of much worse parenting.

Thanks for that. I suppose as long as they know that everything you do springs out of love, maybe they can tolerate any parental failings.

[eFestivals]

That's the thing though isn't it - if you're different, you're weird. and although we have an ideal of individual freedom, we also have a need to belong. If you were truly unique, you wouldn't be able to have any sense of belonging.

No point of reference.

nah, not true.

Many people do definitely have a need to belong, but those without that need (or with a lesser one, anyway) end up belonging by default whether they want to or not.

It's pretty simple: there's always common ground with others over something.

[Ed209]

Reading The Lost World on the commute this morning, this passage seemed kind of relevant

"What makes you think human beings are sentient and aware? There's no evidence for it. Human beings never think for themselves, they find it too uncomfortable. For the most part, members of our species simply repeat what they are told-and become upset if they are exposed to any different view. The characteristic human trait is not awareness but conformity, and the characteristic result is religious warfare. Other animals fight for territory or food; but, uniquely in the animal kingdom, human beings fight for their 'beliefs.' The reason is that beliefs guide behavior which has evolutionary importance among human beings. But at a time when our behavior may well lead us to extinction, I see no reason to assume we have any awareness at all. We are stubborn, self-destructive conformists. Any other view of our species is just a self-congratulatory delusion."

Michael Crichton

A view I agree with in many ways.

[grumpyhack]

Individuality and belonging aren't necessarily opposites.

For example a couple / partnership can consist of two individuals who are separate self-contained people but who share some values, interests etc.

I think a sense of community is important. And we belong to many communities.

In my village if I meet someone and they ask where I live, I'd say up Penrhiw Lane.

If I meet someone in Cardiff I'd say I live in Machen.

If I meet someone at Glastonbury I'd probably say South Wales.

If I meet someone abroad I'd probably start with Wales or the UK.

They are all different communities to which I belong. But just because I belong to a community doesn't necessarily make me a total conformist.

[eFestivals]

Individuality and belonging aren't necessarily opposites.

For example a couple / partnership can consist of two individuals who are separate self-contained people but who share some values, interests etc.

I think a sense of community is important. And we belong to many communities.

In my village if I meet someone and they ask where I live, I'd say up Penrhiw Lane.

If I meet someone in Cardiff I'd say I live in Machen.

If I meet someone at Glastonbury I'd probably say South Wales.

If I meet someone abroad I'd probably start with Wales or the UK.

They are all different communities to which I belong. But just because I belong to a community doesn't necessarily make me a total conformist.

I'd say that it does, and that where you've gone wrong with your thinking there is by not properly associating yourself with the right communities.

Those at odds with the majority in any given area on any given subject are still conforming, tho to a different idea than the majority.

The only exception to that would be if the idea you go with is one that it truly unique to you.

[feral chile]

I'd say that it does, and that where you've gone wrong with your thinking there is by not properly associating yourself with the right communities.

Those at odds with the majority in any given area on any given subject are still conforming, tho to a different idea than the majority.

The only exception to that would be if the idea you go with is one that it truly unique to you.

Yes, that's it really. Being an only child, I always found it difficult joining in with groups, because I felt trapped following someone else's rules. And because I hadn't internalised 'fitting in' with siblings, the group's rules were overt to me, because I was very conscious of trying to discover what they were.

The dangerous thing is, we do it all the time in total ignorance. I pride myself on being able to pick up on a lot of it, for the reason given above, but I bet I'm kidding myself.

Edited September 11, 2013 by feral chile

[feral chile]

I don't understand how the idea of non-corming is seemingly implausible. I understand what Neil is saying, but I don't agree that it applies to everyone.

Obviously there is an inevitable sense of conforming.. we all breathe air to live, we sleep, we eat, etc, which is a type of conforming, but I don't think that counts in relation to what we perceive as 'conforming'

What do you think of as conforming and nonconforming?

First thing is - conforming/nonconforming to what?

Does total nonconformity mean not belonging, fitting in, whatever you want to call it, with any group at all? Does being a unique individual necessitate social isolation?

Edited September 11, 2013 by feral chile

[feral chile]

That's an unrealistically negative take on what conforming or non-conforming is. I think of conforming as accepting, unquestioningly, what has happened before. How do 'geniuses' come up with what to many would be unthinkable concepts, without some non-conformist thinking taking place? How did someone question that the world might not be flat?

Is nonconformist the same as original? Originality is putting together existing knowledge in a novel way.

Most thinkers come up with their ideas by analysing and finding fault with what's gone before.

That's not really what bothers me though. I have a big thing about hidden control. I genuinely believe that if I'd been in the Milgram conformity experiments, I would never have agreed to continue with the experiment. But it was pointed out that all students thought that - apart from army veterans, who of course had actually been through similar situations, and knew different.

And I'm quite smug about noticing peer pressure in colleagues and refusing to comply - when a person is scapegoated, for instance - but amongst the nice feeling of superiority is that little unsettling doubt - what about all the conforming I'm doing unconsciously? Is there someone else smugly observing me conforming to something they've noticed and resisted?

That's the thing - you can only resist control if you're aware of it.

Edited September 11, 2013 by feral chile