conforming as a nonconformist?

[feral chile]

People, whether children or adults, do have to learn that actions have consequences. Isn't part of our job as parents to help our kids be aware of that and perhaps help them think through the consequences that they might not have considered?

totally. That's why I think exploring options, and going through it with them, is better than laying down the law and then hoping they obey.

[grumpyhack]

Agreed. But, in theory, we are older and wiser so no harm in sharing our experience - even if it's to point out our own mistakes and regrets (I've had a few - but then again......)

[feral chile]

Agreed. But, in theory, we are older and wiser so no harm in sharing our experience - even if it's to point out our own mistakes and regrets (I've had a few - but then again......)

oh they know most of my mistakes. But I've always presented it in that way, rather than I knew better than them.

Kids always think they know best, anyway, and they'll always do what they want, with or without your knowledge and agreement.

but you can't be there to pick up the pieces if your child's scared of the consequences of disobedience, even if that consequence is the parent knowing they were right all along. That's pretty humiliating for a child.

They need to know that you're there for them, no matter what mistakes they make, without any self righteousness.

Of course, this is in an ideal world. There's many a time when I've had to bite my lip to stop a version of 'I told you so' making itself heard.

[kaosmark2]

I am incredibly envious of all your children. I've hinted at it before, but I've had a very crappy relationship with my parents, and feel that I only learned how to be an emotionally functional human being from my friends.

[grumpyhack]

Friends are great, often more important and supportive than family.

You can choose your friends - you don't choose your family.

[feral chile]

I am incredibly envious of all your children. I've hinted at it before, but I've had a very crappy relationship with my parents, and feel that I only learned how to be an emotionally functional human being from my friends.

oh, we're not perfect parents, by any means. My children are all adults now, and there are still things that I'd do differently, and we discuss these together as a family too. They're the ones who often reassure me that I did OK, when I'm beating myself up over something I'd do differently now. So it's a proper role reversal.

We all make mistakes. Parents, though are the ones responsible for guiding their children, so their mistakes matter, because they might be long term.

The best you can do, really, is make sure your children know you love them. Everything else can be forgiven.

I sympathise, I had a similar upbringing to yours.

We were lucky though - just before my grandparents died I managed to express how much I loved them, and they were able to explain themselves a little.

In their case, they wanted to retain control, and saw expressing emotion as weakness that I could exploit. So I'm glad I reached out. I'm absolutely certain that most of these seemingly self assured parents, who can never admit to not being perfect, are worried they've screwed up their kids - they just can't express it. They're not evil people out to destroy their own flesh and blood, they're just struggling along like the rest of us.

Sometimes when you're mature enough yourself, you have to parent your parents

Edited September 22, 2013 by feral chile

[feral chile]

We're older, there's nowhere near enough evidence of wiser. And the ones who are mature enough to admit where they went wrong are just as rare. How often do you hear "well it was good enough for me" when discussing parenting?

The idea that kids, anyone, should show respect to another person simply because they are older, just seems daft to me. Show respect because it is another human being, maybe. The other side of this is how some old people expect respect, just because of their age, and fail to give any to younger people. Many of them will be parents not giving respect to their kids.

Sharing our experiences, good and bad, definitely!

I agree totally with this. Parents don't get given a user manual, And they don't magically transform into perfect examples of humanity as soon as they reproduce. There are loads of mistakes made along the way. There are always things you could have done better.

The only thing you can hope to get through to your kids is that you're trying your best for them.

Lots of parents don't like to admit they're fallible, though, because they think they need to be perfect. And this hinders communication, because it prevents a child from talking about past hurts, and getting emotional reassurance from the parent. And prevents the parent from talking about past mistakes, and getting emotional reassurance from their offspring.

Edited September 22, 2013 by feral chile

[kaosmark2]

If you can't admit a mistake, how can you sort out the problems it caused?

[feral chile]

If you can't admit a mistake, how can you sort out the problems it caused?

yes, I think that's one of the tragedies in life. We all get defensive and insecure, afraid that people might think less of us when they discover our flaws, and it's an act of courage to admit you're wrong. But so worth it.

Edited September 22, 2013 by feral chile

[feral chile]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/how-risky-is-it-really/201309/the-smarter-we-are-the-dumber-we-get-about-facts

[mrtourette]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/how-risky-is-it-really/201309/the-smarter-we-are-the-dumber-we-get-about-facts

That's no surprise, happens in most of the political arguments here.

[feral chile]

I found this interesting. It's about peer pressure, something that I find very uncomfortable, and very obvious, and can never understand why people seem oblivious to it.

Turns out that conforming/non conforming activates different areas of your brain, and alters your perception of reality.

Conformists have heightened activity in the spatial perception areas of the brain, a part of my brain that's pretty much inactive, I have no sense of direction and great difficulty scanning quickly and absorbing visual information that isn't verbal. I don't see in 3d because of a lazy eye.

Non conformists have heightened activity in the part of the brain relating to emotional salience, so that would explain why I can recognise peer pressure and find it disturbing.

So, it appears that having a manky eye has helped me to be an independent thinker!

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/am-i-right/201404/the-astonishing-power-social-pressure?tr=MostViewed

Edited April 18, 2014 by feral chile

[viberunner]

My son pointed out something while he was still in school. He thought it ironic that people who thought of themselves as nonconformist or alternative still chose to identify themselves as a group by wearing a uniform that identified them as part of that group. He was thinking particularly of Goths...

I think it's more about not conforming to the expectations of mainstream society rather than wishing to be completely anti-social.

[feral chile]

I think it's more about not conforming to the expectations of mainstream society rather than wishing to be completely anti-social.

You still have to conform to a group though, it's difficult not to. The part that makes me particularly uncomfortable is when a personal disagreement starts off like a Mexican wave, and leads to scapegoating.

Edited April 18, 2014 by feral chile

[Katster]

We still don't have TV and people still think I'm weird. We just watched a fab documentary about primates and now we are going to bed to read. People keep telling me I will get TV when the baby arrives, what else am I going to do with it when I want to get my jobs done? Erm, talk to it maybe? Sing? Let if watch the same cool documentary we just watched so it can learn something rather than frying its brain? Idiots.

[feral chile]

I think it's more about not conforming to the expectations of mainstream society rather than wishing to be completely anti-social.

Are you anti-social if you don't want to conform to group norms? It really worries me to think I might be subject to some form of group mind control. If I've noticed it happening within the group, while other group members are oblivious to its effects, it stands to reason I'm subject to it as well, as I only notice when I experience cognitive dissonance.

[viberunner]

Are you anti-social if you don't want to conform to group norms?

It's anti-social if you don't want to be part of any group or society whatsoever. It's not anti-social to not conform many or even most social groups, but to reject all of them (truly so), well, wouldn't that define as anti-social?

[feral chile]

It's anti-social if you don't want to be part of any group or society whatsoever. It's not anti-social to not conform many or even most social groups, but to reject all of them (truly so), well, wouldn't that define as anti-social?

If you don't follow the group norms, they're likely to reject you. I find it difficult to conform in full to any social grouping - in work I tone down my clothes, so as not to disturb anyone. As they know I like Indie, if I roll up in anything black they think I'm a death metal Satanist.

On the other hand, I don't really conform to any particular alternative group - most of the genres I'd partially fit style-wise would have goth in them somewhere though I don't consider myself a goth (or anything other than a rock music fan).

I feel too uncomfortable to happily conform to their identity stereotype though, especially the goth-emo one - death, coffins, bats etc.

[Yoghurt on a Stick]

I'm sure I've said it before but we all conform don't we really. Even the Schizophrenic are predictable. Only those who truly opt out via suicide can be considered to be truly non conformist, as far as I'm concerned.

[feral chile]

I'm sure I've said it before but we all conform don't we really. Even the Schizophrenic are predictable. Only those who truly opt out via suicide can be considered to be truly non conformist, as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, I'd agree with that, it's a necessary part of human life, we need to have some expectations of each other in order to function socially.

It's hidden control I have an issue with. Unconscious conformity, such as that mentioned in the above article - it strikes me as very 1984 - the group used to think this way, there's a mass opinion shift, now the group has always thought that way, and their perception of reality has shifted, as their worldview has changed.

I've studied group dynamics, and it's pretty scary stuff - the power of self fulfilling prophesies and the expectancy effect.

[kaosmark2]

I'm sure I've said it before but we all conform don't we really. Even the Schizophrenic are predictable. Only those who truly opt out via suicide can be considered to be truly non conformist, as far as I'm concerned.

I wouldn't agree that suicide is an act of non-conformism. It could be, but you get these weird suicide pact cults, there's a degree of understanding around it happening to victims of various things, or the terminally ill wanting to go on their terms.

[feral chile]

I wouldn't agree that suicide is an act of non-conformism. It could be, but you get these weird suicide pact cults, there's a degree of understanding around it happening to victims of various things, or the terminally ill wanting to go on their terms.

That's a good point. I was thinking of people who just want to step off the globe to escape their reality altogether.

[feral chile]

I think, many people have an almost romantic idea of what non-conforming is. Rock n roll used to be the height of rebellion, it's not any more.

Maybe the only way to not conform is to act against your own 'routine'. If you get up every day, and you have any kind of regular behaviour, to not conform would be to change that routine. What one person sees as not conforming, is totally conforming for someone else. In my 'circles' to not conform would be to vote for UKIP or the Tories.. .but that's not going to be perceived as not conforming by a lot of people.

My conformity issue at the moment, is trivial, and yet essential to my identity. Now that I'm in my 50s, I've started toning down my wild hair. It used to be very long and a bright copper, and I've cut it off and gone a more subtle shade.

Now, though, I'm feeling peer pressure, and therefore my bloody mindedness has risen to the surface, on two fronts. Workmates thoroughly approve of my new look, because now I look 'normal'. My friends are mourning the loss of my orange hair, and essentially the old rocker they're familiar with.

And me, I'm feeling uncomfortable, because I'm feeling pressurised to conform to expectations, and in a weird kind of way, the rebelliousness is no closer to freedom than conformity. Rejecting peer pressure is conformity in a sense, if you just do the opposite of what people want. You're still being influenced.

Edited April 27, 2014 by feral chile

[feral chile]

But what do YOU want? Is your bloody mindedness and/or peer pressure getting in the way of your own wishes?

Yes, Because of how bloody minded I am,all I know is I don't want to give into peer pressure. But because I have totally opposing peer pressure, it becomes obvious to me that non conformity in my case isn't true independence - it's just 'not what they want'.

I don't know what I want. realistically. I actually want to be of an age where I don't care what someone my age should look like. And up to my 40s I was. And hopefully will aain reach an age where Idon't give a stuff. But now, I just feel self conscious and out of step

[feral chile]

well... it's hard, isn't it

Is there an 'age' where that happens? I'm fast approaching 60, and one of the things I've appreciated is how a lot of the things I might have worried about, about being old(er), even the superficial stuff, like what clothes should I wear, seems to be still be in the future. It's not really an age thing, is it? It's a state of mind (and I'm not a particularly spectacular example of someone who doesn't care what people think of me, however much I kid myself!)

Do people care what other people look like?.. which might seem like a stupid question, seeing as the world is full of people (journalists, critics, etc) who seem to have carved a meaningless existence for themselves simply commenting on what people should or shouldn't look like.

You mustn't (ooh, hark at him!) let your bloody mindedness get in the way of what you actually want. Reaching that point of knowing what you want might be harder to achieve, but not doing something you might want to do for superficial (?) reasons can't be a good way. I imagine what might be difficult for some people is to acknowledge that what you didn't want to do in the past, because of any number of principled reasons, isn't such an issue now. I used to have long hair when I was a teenager, and for a while it was like a badge of honour, and the last thing I would have done through choice would be to get it cut.. to look smart (yeeuch!). Then, I don't know what happened, but I decided I might like it shorter, so I did it. Almost traumatic, but it was my choice, kind of against what used to be my instincts. Maybe it was vanity, I don't know, I just wanted a change. Now, the unexpected result of this was some girls, girls I liked, really liked my hair.. so it was fine

I did grow it back though....

Does your work put pressure on how you should dress?

There's no dress code, but as a friend pointed out, that just makes it easier to pick out those who are different. Whereas a 'uniform' is camouflage.

I feel guilty, as well, because nobody in my new role has given me any hassle about how I look, though my new image has inspired loads of compliments. And I can't work out if that's because I now conform, or because I genuinely looked awful before, and people were too kind to say.

I feel a little too conservative now. And I work in a very conservative environment.

I'm/was also a hair person, product of the 60s and 70s, and it's a badge of honour for me too, so that's part of the dilemma. I can't really have loud unruly hair in my 60s and 70s without looking totally insane. But I want to

Edited April 28, 2014 by feral chile