Game of Thrones discussion thread

[russycarps]

Do you think she consented of her own volition or do you think there was duress? If there was duress there was no consent.

It's something Tyrion Lannister was able to figure out. He realised fucking her, when she didn't really want to, after a marriage she didn't really want, was rape.

I feel like in that conversation she had with littlefinger where he gave her a choice to go ahead with the marriage or turn back, that's when she gave her consent. She made the choice to go ahead. Littlefinger didn't force her.

She knew she was getting married and she knew she'd be having sex and she chose to go ahead with it. There was no suggestion she was forced into that marriage.

[viberunner]

I feel like in that conversation she had with littlefinger where he gave her a choice to go ahead with the marriage or turn back, that's when she gave her consent. She made the choice to go ahead. Littlefinger didn't force her.

Not physically, but surely coercion? You can't honestly be telling us with a straight face that Stanza is wanting this situation?

This whole thread is turning too Fedora for words.

[fred quimby]

yeah that's what i assumed - pushing him one step closer to snapping and attempting to kill Ramsay

or we see him being hunted by the delighted newlyweds through the baron wastelands.

or that could be just in my head

[fred quimby]

It's something Tyrion Lannister was able to figure out. He realised fucking her, when she didn't really want to, after a marriage she didn't really want, was rape.

I see where you went wrong there.Thinking Tyrion and Ramsey figure out these things in the same way

[russycarps]

Not physically, but surely coercion? You can't honestly be telling us with a straight face that Stanza is wanting this situation?

This whole thread is turning too Fedora for words.

She's put herself in this position to get power/revenge.

She doesn't like it, but she's trying to play the game. But she's just realised she's out of her depth.

I agree that littlefinger talked her into it though.

Here's a question. Do you also call ned stark a rapist? Catelyn was supposed to marry his brother who died, so she ended up marrying ned who she didn't even know. He consumates on the wedding night, so is also a rapist.

[Wooderson]

This thread is awkward.

[russycarps]

This thread is awkward.

If you can't separate reality from a fantasy setting, then yes I can see how this conversation could be awkward.

In the context of westeros, which is what we are discussing, it wasn't an unusual scenario.

[bunique]

She knew it was coming. Doesn't make it any less of a violation though, surely?

Also, up to the point he got her in the bedroom, he'd been on best behaviour. She had only had glimpses of his sadism in seeing how Theon has been broken down.

[russycarps]

She knew it was coming. Doesn't make it any less of a violation though, surely?

Also, up to the point he got her in the bedroom, he'd been on best behaviour. She had only had glimpses of his sadism in seeing how Theon has been broken down.

No more or no less of a violation than ned having sex with catelyn on their wedding night...

[bunique]

But that scene hasn't been on screen, so we've no idea how they would have played it, nor how either character would have gone about it.

[viberunner]

Here's a question. Do you also call ned stark a rapist? Catelyn was supposed to marry his brother who died, so she ended up marrying ned who she didn't even know. He consumates on the wedding night, so is also a rapist.

Same with Cersei. It would depend on the agency of the woman involved to say no, but yes, Westeros is quite rapey. And incestuousty. Essos too.

It's a pair of continents with one shared fedora.

[DomDom1984]

Think I'm just going to wait until the end of the season and then binge it. The first two episodes were excellent, but since then, it's been a smattering of terrific scenes ( the stone men attack being the best of the lot so far ) and a lot of stuff that you know is going somewhere good, but is moving there far too slow.

[swede]

Im actually loving this series, its a slow build, I like slow builds in tv series as usually the pay off is worth it. It seems like they are building to have at least 3 or 4 massive moments within the last 2-3 episodes.

Little finger is showing he is by far the smartest player of the game, he is just moving people around like pieces on a chess board at the moment, he will come unstuck at some point though but its great to watch him manipulating people at will.

The Sansa/Theon/Ramsey scene was tense, my wife was in tears watching it, thought it was done brilliantly and at some point Theon is going to snap.

Edited May 20, 2015 by swede

[viberunner]

Little finger is showing he is by far the smartest player of the game, he is just moving people around like pieces on a chess board at the moment, he will come unstuck at some point though but its great to watch him manipulating people at will.

Thoughts on that... he suggested the Lannisters attack Winterfell, Jaime or the Uncle peson. He finally suggested himself.

Did he know the Lannisters would be unable to attack? If so, how? He's been on the road and was surprised about the Cudgel Brothers so hardly up-to-date at the moment.

[Matt42]

She may not have known it was coming, as Tyrion was kind to her (as she stated). Jog my memory, did Sansa even know who Ramsey Bolton was before she met him?

[gary1979666]

She may not have known it was coming, as Tyrion was kind to her (as she stated). Jog my memory, did Sansa even know who Ramsey Bolton was before she met him?

She was daughter to the warden of the north, so stories of him must have got back to Winterfell pre S1.

[gary1979666]

Thoughts on that... he suggested the Lannisters attack Winterfell, Jaime or the Uncle peson. He finally suggested himself.

Did he know the Lannisters would be unable to attack? If so, how? He's been on the road and was surprised about the Cudgel Brothers so hardly up-to-date at the moment.

I think he would expect them not to want to attack and think him attacking would be the better option. But not being able to is even better for him, longer term as Lannisters are split and fighting elsewhere.

[russycarps]

She may not have known it was coming, as Tyrion was kind to her (as she stated). Jog my memory, did Sansa even know who Ramsey Bolton was before she met him?

she may not have known that people have sex on their wedding night?

the story would have been utterly absurd if ramsey had not had sex with her.

people are up in arms because it's sweet sansa and nasty ramsey. When all they really did is exactly the same thing as happens in every other marriage in westeros.

The only out of the ordinary part of the scene was having theon watch, but that gets little comment.

[bunique]

Oh come on. In every Westeros marriage, the groom rips the bride's clothes off and forcibly enters her from behind? You don't think other men would conduct themselves with a little more finesse?

Edited May 20, 2015 by bunique

[bunique]

And yes the reaction is about Sansa because since her aunt's death at the Erie she's been transformed, yet this scene took her back to being a victim.

Edited May 20, 2015 by bunique

[bunique]

If anything it's more disturbing that less than 12 months on from the Jaimie/Cersei "was it rape" debate, the writers have seen fit to include a scene that is apparently just as ambiguous for some.

[Spindles]

Some would, some wouldn't I reckon. Like Russy says, this is a fantasy setting in a fantasy world with rules and morals different to our own, trying to project ours is pointless. In Westeros terms she had made her peace with what was going to come, but Ramsey proved himself the bastard he is by making sure it was as cruelty filled as it was.

[russycarps]

Oh come on. In every Westeros marriage, the groom rips the bride's clothes off and forcibly enters her from behind? You don't think other men would conduct themselves with a little more finesse?

well we've only seen 2 wedding nights in GoT, and that's exactly what happened both times! (dany+drogo and this one)

Wasnt there a scene where catelyn was talking to her daughters explaining to them what a womans role is in the world, that they would inevitably end up marrying against their will just as she had.

I imagine sansas wedding night was pretty much the norm (sans reek of course!)

(again let me reiterate I dont condone this in the real world! just thinking in GoT terms)

Edited May 20, 2015 by russycarps

[ThomThomDrum]

We are talking of a fantasy world here in which arranged marriages and ownership of people is pretty much OK/the norm. Projecting our real life society morals onto it, although natural, can cause confusion in viewing it. But is that not the point? We are supposed to compare our morality to that of this worlds as this fantasy worlds morality is not too far removed from ours/what ours once was.

One sees the likes of rape a lot more accepted/expected in this fantasy world, but their society's acceptance/expectation of such still does not take from the pain and suffering of the victim irrespective if the victim knows this goes on in their world prior to them being victimised.

I dont know about the UK but marital rape in Ireland was only criminalized in 1990! Im sure any victim before then didnt find comfort in the idea that the rape they suffered was "legal".

This fantasy worlds attitude to many things immoral is simply a stark reminder to us that we are not too far removed as a society from such acceptance/expectations.

We should be disgusted with the rape in GOT and feel ashamed that our societies have taken so long to change our attitudes toward it. In some parts of the world societies attitudes have not................

I for one definitely do not see such scenes as merely pointless

[viberunner]

the story would have been utterly absurd if ramsey had not had sex with her.

Sex? Yes. A "get it over with" punishment rutting? Not as much.

Even if you want to play his psychopathic card he has a history of gaining trust, appearing nice, & then betraying it.