Football 2014/15

[eFestivals]

I wouldn't argue with that, however that German team were not scoring 5 against any decent team.

perhaps.

But they easily could have done against England in that match. They could have very easily scored five and that result been reversed.

[TheGayTent]

Its a failing of a lot of international coaches to give the captaincy to the player whos been there the longest. Rooney will be next I presume?

Bobby Moore was 22 when he captained England in his 12th international.

[eFestivals]

hurray for Booby the Fulham legend.

[mrtourette]

I don't care particularly. I just see what he offered to keep his place for so long. Never mind being made captain. Same for Rooney.

He has (rather annoyingly) consistently been one of the best Engliah central midfielders over the last ten years for his club. As for the captaincy, I would imagine that the combination of experience and predicted longevity in the team lead to Roy Hodgson choosing him. I canl't really see who was a better option.

[TheGayTent]

hurray for Booby the Fulham legend.

More of a hurrah for Alf really

[pink_triangle]

Football is a game of small margins, you need your top players to find that bit of magic to turn a draw to a win. Thuram came up with 2 goals in a world cup semi final from right back. Pirlo did it without scoring. If you ask Gerrard has he done enough, I think he would be honest and say no.

[pink_triangle]

1 goal 12 years ago. Superb. Deserved captain.

He was so bad against Uruguay, Marca didn't even rate him. They gave him -/10.

Its a failing of a lot of international coaches to give the captaincy to the player whos been there the longest. Rooney will be next I presume?

Who cares who the captain is. Lahm tossed a coin, wore an armband and lifted a trophy. Cricket captains have influence , football don't.

[pink_triangle]

and yet YOU've decided he's one of the best players, and YOU have put that expectation on him, and YOU have decided he's shite as a result.

While all Gerrard has done is play his football, which has proven him as not as good as your expectations of him.

But it's Gerrard's fault you're disappointed in him, yeah?

The word shite is yours and not mine. My ranking of Gerrard as one of Britains top midfielders over the last 10 years is shared by most, as is my analysis of him in big games as disappointing.

[mrtourette]

Football is a game of small margins, you need your top players to find that bit of magic to turn a draw to a win. Thuram came up with 2 goals in a world cup semi final from right back. Pirlo did it without scoring. If you ask Gerrard has he done enough, I think he would be honest and say no.

Probably true, but I find it bizarre that in comparison Lampard is being held up as some kind of example. If any player has frustratingly been unable to transfer his excellent club form onto the international stage then it's Frank Lampard.

[Essex_George]

ame="Essex_George" post="4448758" timestamp="1406017558"]

Football is a game of small margins, you need your top players to find that bit of magic to turn a draw to a win. Thuram came up with 2 goals in a world cup semi final from right back. Pirlo did it without scoring. If you ask Gerrard has he done enough, I think he would be honest and say no.

He hasn't produced the same form for England as he has done for club, can't argue against that but some of the points made on here are laughable. Gerrard was often asked to perform a different role for England than he did for LFC, he did it OK without being great in most games. Many players do not play to their club level when playing for England, is that because they don't give a fuck about England or that there is something wrong with the way players are used for England.

[Gucci Piggy]

and yet YOU've decided he's one of the best players, and YOU have put that expectation on him, and YOU have decided he's shite as a result.

While all Gerrard has done is play his football, which has proven him as not as good as your expectations of him.

But it's Gerrard's fault you're disappointed in him, yeah?

So are we going to just disregard all previous performances that show that Gerrard is a much better player than most others in the England team?

If we went to the World Cup with a CM partnership of Steven Gerrard and a 17 year old Canvey Island midfielder, and they both performed to the same level, would you be equally happy with both players? No, you'd be more disappointed in Gerrard, because you know he's more capable of performing to a higher standard.

Nobody's saying he's been one of England's worst players; they're saying he had the quality to perform to a higher standard than he did, and it's disappointing he never reached those heights for England. You seem to have taken it as some kind of attack on Gerrard, when no one has been like that at all.

[mrtourette]

I think The Nal has.

[eFestivals]

The word shite is yours and not mine. My ranking of Gerrard as one of Britains top midfielders over the last 10 years is shared by most, as is my analysis of him in big games as disappointing.

Yep, and that rating of him being one of Britain's top midfielders is probably right.

Which means that he should give a greater contribution than other lesser-midfielders - and he has - and not that he should be carving up other teams like Ronaldo.

All of your justification for thinking he's failed comes bfrom your own ratings of him as a player - and the facts of his playing gets to show he doesn't reach the heights you credit him for.

You've built your own stack of cards and then you're knocking down your own stack of cards. Nothing of it is actually about what Gerrard does, it's only about your opinions of what he does.

[eFestivals]

So are we going to just disregard all previous performances that show that Gerrard is a much better player than most others in the England team?

If we went to the World Cup with a CM partnership of Steven Gerrard and a 17 year old Canvey Island midfielder, and they both performed to the same level, would you be equally happy with both players? No, you'd be more disappointed in Gerrard, because you know he's more capable of performing to a higher standard.

I only know it when I see it. Pink Triangle hasn't seen it, that's why he's saying Gerrard has failed: on the basis of what he's not seen, not what he has seen.

I'm not particularly trying to make any statement on Gerrard, I'm merely pointing out the strawman argument that PT is putting forwards about him.

[ThomThomDrum]

The fact you need to look at qualifying game against one of the worst German sides of all time

Ha Ha! Utter shit...............You do realize that is the German team that got to the final of that WC and then lost to Brazil...........?

Hmmmmmmmmm. I do think there have been a few other German sides in the past that have done less then getting to a World Cup final...................

Edited July 22, 2014 by ThomThomDrum

[ThomThomDrum]

1 goal 12 years ago. Superb. Deserved captain.

His goal against the USA in 2010 was pretty important considering if he had not scored it they would not have qualified for the last 16 to get hammered by the Germans.......

BTW I think he may have scored a few more than 1 or 2 goals in an England shirt..........I may be wrong but Im pretty sure its a few more than that

Edited July 22, 2014 by ThomThomDrum

[mrtourette]

Ha Ha! Utter shit...............You do realize that is the German team that got to the final of that WC and then lost to Brazil...........?

Hmmmmmmmmm. I do think there have been a few other German sides in the past that have done less then getting to a World Cup final...................

That is considered to be quite an anomly for the German team of that era and largely ignored when assessing the bigger picture, given that they failed to get past the group stages for the European Championships in 2000 and 2004. That period was the time in which they had to hit the reset button and make the changes that are currently lauded as being what has lead to their current success, the fact that they reached the World Cup final during that period is seen as an accident that masked the real underlying issues in German football at the time, not really a success story. Post-Euro 2000 they were in a bad way and a World Cup final appearance thanks to three 1-0 victories in the group stages over the quality opponents of Paraguay, USA and South Korea and Oliver Khan being voted the player of the tournament didn't cover that up. They were a dull and unispiring team with ageing players, making it to the final didn't hide that or fool anybody that they were a comparatively poor team that needed attention.

Edited July 22, 2014 by mrtourette

[ThomThomDrum]

That is considered to be quite an anomly for the German team of that era and largely ignored when assessing the bigger picture, given that they failed to get past the group stages for the European Championships in 2000 and 2004. That period was the time in which they had to hit the reset button and make the changes that are currently lauded as being what has lead to their current success, the fact that they reached the World Cup final during that period is seen as an accident that masked the real underlying issues in German football at the time, not really a success story. Post-Euro 2000 they were in a bad way and a World Cup final appearance thanks to three 1-0 victories in the group stages over the quality opponents of Paraguay, USA and South Korea and Oliver Khan being voted the player of the tournament didn't cover that up. They were a dull and unispiring team with ageing players, making it to the final didn't hide that or fool anybody that they were a comparatively poor team that needed attention.

Maybe not one of the strongest German teams of the past (sure they did not win the WC), but defo not one of the worst. You dont go from being totally rubbish to a World cup final in a few months. Or are you thinking a WC is not the best indicator of the best international football teams of a time?

Dull, uninspiring football played by old men still does not mean that its not effective football and that German squad proved that.

That England game they lost was the only one they lost in qualifying. Sure England finished on the same points as them.

[pink_triangle]

Probably true, but I find it bizarre that in comparison Lampard is being held up as some kind of example. If ,any player has frustratingly been unable to transfer his excellent club form onto the international stage then it's Frank Lampard.

It's not all about form though, a player who plays crap and then scores can be more valuable in a tight game than one who plays ok but doesn't.

For all lampards flaws he scored in knockout against Portugal and Germany. Very few have scored at all, so that's not a bad strike rate.

[mrtourette]

Maybe not one of the strongest German teams of the past (sure they did not win the WC), but defo not one of the worst. You dont go from being totally rubbish to a World cup final in a few months. Or are you thinking a WC is not the best indicator of the best international football teams of a time?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Just because they got to the final doesn't mean that they are better than other German teams that didn't get to the final.

Dull, uninspiring football played by old men still does not mean that its not effective football and that German squad proved that.

Nobody's saying that it wasn't effective.

That England game they lost was the only one they lost in qualifying. Sure England finished on the same points as them.

Nobody's comparing them to England, they're being compared to other German teams.

[The Nal]

Who has a better frontline then?

Messi, Neymar, Suarez

Ronaldo, Bale, Benzema, Rodriquez

Edited July 22, 2014 by The Nal

[pink_triangle]

Yep, and that rating of him being one of Britain's top midfielders is probably right.

Which means that he should give a greater contribution than other lesser-midfielders - and he has - and not that he should be carving up other teams like Ronaldo.

All of your justification for thinking he's failed comes bfrom your own ratings of him as a player - and the facts of his playing gets to show he doesn't reach the heights you credit him for.

You've built your own stack of cards and then you're knocking down your own stack of cards. Nothing of it is actually about what Gerrard does, it's only about your opinions of what he does.

What your effectively saying is on a discussion about opinion, my opinion has no merit because it's an opinion. While overall he has done better than the lesser players. In the big knockout games he has played (at best) at the same level .

[pink_triangle]

Ha Ha! Utter shit...............You do realize that is the German team that got to the final of that WC and then lost to Brazil...........?

Hmmmmmmmmm. I do think there have been a few other German sides in the past that have done less then getting to a World Cup final...................

I realise that and have every admiration that even with a very average side, they had 2 world class players who didn't use their lesser teammates as an excuse and dragged them through. They also had a lucky draw, but fair play they took advantage.

[mrtourette]

It's not all about form though, a player who plays crap and then scores can be more valuable in a tight game than one who plays ok but doesn't.

For all lampards flaws he scored in knockout against Portugal and Germany. Very few have scored at all, so that's not a bad strike rate.

Ironic, given that Lampard's strike rate for England was pretty woeful (didn't he hold the World Cup record for most shots without scoring at one point?).

I get your point, I guess it depends on how you value players. If Lamaprd scoring in the knock-out rounds of an ultimately unsuccessful tournament is more important than the play that got the team to that point then so be it. It just seems a bit closed-minded to me to only focus on the stats rather than actually considering the (unfortunately unquantifiable) effects and impact in other areas.

[ThomThomDrum]

.

Nobody's comparing them to England, they're being compared to other German teams.

But based on the fact they lost to England 5-1.............A result that was a freak. As that German team only lost that one game and made it to a final of a WC.

The argument started by implying Gerrards goal against this team was not important/good as this German team were crap.