Football 2014/15

[pink_triangle]

Yeah, but lets consider the opportunity to play in an actual knockout match at international level. That is a very very rare thing. In Gerards time in the England set up they have only played in 7 such games and I dont think it can be argued that England lost any of those knock out games when they should have clearly won them.

Knockout games are not the only important international games and he has delivered in a few important international games whether folk on here want to believe it or not. The Germany 2001 game and the USA 2010 are two in which he scored very important goals for England.

Lets also not forget his goal against Sweden in 2006 helped England avoid Germany in the knockouts and so they could play the easier team in Ecuador in the last 16.

Im in no way saying Gerrard was something super in an England shirt, but he was in no way totally useless, and was very much extremely important on occasion.

Those England v Portugal games were 50/50 games where a top performance from an England midfielder or forward could have changed the draw to a win. The top performance never came. You have to hope your big players come through in those games like Ashley Cole did who was consistently superb for England. I would argue that part of the reason you can't say England should have won those games was their key players didn't play well enough.

There's no argument from me that in those 100+ games there have been some good performance. However there hasn't been the consistency in building up a run of consecutive good games, that you need in tournament football. The fact is you bring up those games, but in 20 years time they aren't significant enough to stay relevant and he will be remembered for his games for Liverpool and not England.

Edited July 22, 2014 by pink_triangle

[pink_triangle]

I was thinking of that team and still think it is better than Englands, Djimi Traore included!

Probably depends which England. Current team probably, but the peak of the "golden generation" probably fairly close.

[kaosmark2]

He's lived up to his level. He's not Ronaldo tho.

He had a disappointing World Cup.

[TheGayTent]

Any whispers on Tyneside about HBA + $ for Carroll?

[ThomThomDrum]

The fact is you bring up those games, but in 20 years time they aren't significant enough to stay relevant and he will be remembered for his games for Liverpool and not England.

Thats because Liverpool have been somewhat successful while England have not. England's lack of success is not down to one SG and his performances (or lack thereof) in knockout games. It goes way beyond that. The fact that he did not drag unworthy England teams to greater heights is not something I feel he should be ridiculed about.

Fans hope great individual players can impart such influence every time they get on the pitch, but to expect it is way too much IMO.

[kaosmark2]

Any whispers on Tyneside about HBA + $ for Carroll?

Nowt I've heard. Rumours of interest in Carroll and near-confirmed that we're shipping HBA out, but nothing about a swap deal.

[eFestivals]

Well if we take the 2005 Champions League win as an example, when he played brilliantly, then no, he had much worse players around him, and against harder opposition than most of the times he's played for England.

he had Alonso in the team. That's a BIG plus over anything that England has given him.

[eFestivals]

He had a disappointing World Cup.

he hit his own level about the same as most (all) Of the players did, barring perhaps Rooney (tho does he still have that higher level? I'm not so sure).

There's none of them had a good one. One or two had a bit-better-than-just-OK one.

Gerrard is 34, and has visibly slowed down over the last few years. Even in his best years there wasn't huge amounts extra there. As I say, he's not Ronaldo.

[kaosmark2]

he hit his own level about the same as most (all) Of the players did, barring perhaps Rooney (tho does he still have that higher level? I'm not so sure).

There's none of them had a good one. One or two had a bit-better-than-just-OK one.

Gerrard is 34, and has visibly slowed down over the last few years. Even in his best years there wasn't huge amounts extra there. As I say, he's not Ronaldo.

Actually my point was that Gerrard has had average players around him for England, and so have Portugal, yet you're saying "he's not Ronaldo, he can't be expected to lift a mediocre team to a higher level", but Ronaldo didn't do that either.

[eFestivals]

Actually my point was that Gerrard has had average players around him for England, and so have Portugal, yet you're saying "he's not Ronaldo, he can't be expected to lift a mediocre team to a higher level", but Ronaldo didn't do that either.

that gets to show how limited a single player's impact generally is.

[TheGayTent]

Maradona

[ThomThomDrum]

Maradona

Exception to rule in the extreme.........and there will always be a few.

Roy Keane did it for Ireland also (not to the heights Diego Maradona did it), dragging our sorry asses to a World Cup from a qualifying group that had Portugal and Holland in it.

This sort of individual brilliance should not be expected of players. Its a very rare thing when one extremely talented player can make up for the mediocrity of so many around them

[pink_triangle]

Thats because Liverpool have been somewhat successful while England have not. England's lack of success is not down to one SG and his performances (or lack thereof) in knockout games. It goes way beyond that. The fact that he did not drag unworthy England teams to greater heights is not something I feel he should be ridiculed about.

.

England's lack of success is not down to any single factor. The best players not playing at their best is however a factor why they didn't achieve more. Gerrard or Rooney putting in a top performance (which both are capable of) in one of those big knockout games and they may have won one of them. If your best players play at close to their best and you fail, then you accept that there's little more that you can do.I think Ashley Cole is in that camp.

For all the downplaying of England as an average side, they have generally been lower end of top 10 level. There's absolutely no reason they didn't have the players to win one of those Portugal games. Italy had a far from amazing side in 2006 and could have gone into a semi final against Germany thinking they had a decent tournament and a brave defeat wasn't a disaster. Instead their top players stood up and the rest is history.

[Essex_George]

Like traore and smicer

Don't forget Salif Diao

[Andre91]

Ospina to Arsenal is a done deal then. Looks like another good signing by Wenger this summer.

[ThomThomDrum]

England's lack of success is not down to any single factor. The best players not playing at their best is however a factor why they didn't achieve more. Gerrard or Rooney putting in a top performance (which both are capable of) in one of those big knockout games and they may have won one of them. If your best players play at close to their best and you fail, then you accept that there's little more that you can do.I think Ashley Cole is in that camp.

For all the downplaying of England as an average side, they have generally been lower end of top 10 level. There's absolutely no reason they didn't have the players to win one of those Portugal games. Italy had a far from amazing side in 2006 and could have gone into a semi final against Germany thinking they had a decent tournament and a brave defeat wasn't a disaster. Instead their top players stood up and the rest is history.

Yeah but I can reverse engineer a dream too..........

Roy Keane stays in the Ireland camp in 2002 and Ireland win their group as a result instead of drawing with "one of the worst Germany teams ever". They follow the German path to the World cup final and loose narrowly to a Brazil team. Ireland as a nation explodes!

Or even less imaginary - When Ireland are playing Spain in Extra time (Keane is in Manchester) Mick McCarthy actually tells the Ireland players Spain are down to 10 men due to and injury and to go for it...........they do and win and play South Korea in the quarters.........We all know South Korea were rubbish in reality (lost to that German team) so Ireland beat them to play "one of the worst Germany teams ever" and so march over them to a Final they loose with Brazil. The nation explodes!

[eFestivals]

Ospina to Arsenal is a done deal then. Looks like another good signing by Wenger this summer.

Hmmmm ... Wenger has said you're not buying a striker.

Again.

Can Costa Rican matey get a visa now? You're stuffed if not.

[Andre91]

Hmmmm ... Wenger has said you're not buying a striker.

Again.

Can Costa Rican matey get a visa now? You're stuffed if not.

Yeah, that did concern me a bit when I read that

I'm hoping it's just a bluff, and he has something in the pipeline. Then again, I hoped that in each of the last two transfer windows

At least he has said that if Vermaelen leaves then he will definitely bring in a replacement CB. I just hope it isn't Phil Jones or Chris Smalling like the papers have been saying today...

[kaosmark2]

Yeah, that did concern me a bit when I read that

I'm hoping it's just a bluff, and he has something in the pipeline. Then again, I hoped that in each of the last two transfer windows

At least he has said that if Vermaelen leaves then he will definitely bring in a replacement CB. I just hope it isn't Phil Jones or Chris Smalling like the papers have been saying today...

Sanchez/Podolski/Giroud/Walcott is enough striking potential IMO. All of them CAN play centrally even if only 2 like to and one's best there. I don't think goal-scoring is an issue for Arsenal.

[Gucci Piggy]

Hmmmm ... Wenger has said you're not buying a striker.

Again.

Can Costa Rican matey get a visa now? You're stuffed if not.

He's mentioned how Sanchez has all the attributes to be a top striker, so he may be planning on playing him there, or converting him gradually over time.

Campbell's at Arsenal next year, yeah.

Giroud is actually good enough to lead the line I think, except against top teams, as he showed in the first half of last season. Only problem is he was the only option up front last year, so was run into the ground, and after half a season he was fucked.

Hopefully with Campbell and Sanchez now available, he'll play less and be able to play at his best for the full season.

Wenger has actually said something like "Alexis can play on the wing or through the centre, so we can play with or without Giroud in a 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3."

Obviously a striker would be ideal, but there doesn't seem to many options aside from overspending on someone like Cavani (who's hideously overrated). Mandzukic may have been an option, but he's a bit similar to Giroud anyway.

[Gucci Piggy]

Sanchez/Podolski/Giroud/Walcott is enough striking potential IMO. All of them CAN play centrally even if only 2 like to and one's best there. I don't think goal-scoring is an issue for Arsenal.

Podolski up front is hideous; his movement is terrible. He is, however, a goalscoring threat from the wing, so does lessen the need for a top striker.

[Gucci Piggy]

At least he has said that if Vermaelen leaves then he will definitely bring in a replacement CB. I just hope it isn't Phil Jones or Chris Smalling like the papers have been saying today...

Apparently Nastasic is available for £16m. If Vermaelen goes for ~£10m he'd be a perfect signing to replace him. Only 21 and is easily capable of replacing Mertesacker when he's past it.

[kaosmark2]

Podolski up front is hideous; his movement is terrible. He is, however, a goalscoring threat from the wing, so does lessen the need for a top striker.

Podolski up front in a 4-4-2 is OK, central in a 4-3-3 is hideous. Wide in 4-3-3 he's very good. But yeah, the point was more that there's enough goalscoring threat from the wide members of a 4-3-3 and Arsenal's midfielders that there isn't the need for a top striker. As you said in the post above, Giroud did fine last season but got burnt out from being the only option.

In terms of people to bring in, I'd say Balotelli would be the best shout in terms of fairly big names. Proven goalscorer, still fairly young. Yeah there's the volatile personality but I'd back Wenger to successfully manage him as well as anyone.

Apparently Nastasic is available for £16m. If Vermaelen goes for ~£10m he'd be a perfect signing to replace him. Only 21 and is easily capable of replacing Mertesacker when he's past it.

I rate Nastasic but £16m seems like a lot IMO. Guess it's how prices are but would he move across the Prem to remain 3rd choice?

Also, I don't think Mertesacker will be past it for a long while. The problem with older CBs is they lose pace, but he hasn't got any pace to lose and his positioning and timing should continue to improve for a few years yet. I reckon he's got top performances in him for 5-6 years.

[Andre91]

Apparently Nastasic is available for £16m. If Vermaelen goes for ~£10m he'd be a perfect signing to replace him. Only 21 and is easily capable of replacing Mertesacker when he's past it.

£16m seems a little pricey, but it would be nice for City to sell a player to Arsenal for a change. I'm not hugely worried about getting another striker in, but a CB and a DM are a must.

[Gucci Piggy]

Podolski up front in a 4-4-2 is OK, central in a 4-3-3 is hideous. Wide in 4-3-3 he's very good. But yeah, the point was more that there's enough goalscoring threat from the wide members of a 4-3-3 and Arsenal's midfielders that there isn't the need for a top striker. As you said in the post above, Giroud did fine last season but got burnt out from being the only option.

In terms of people to bring in, I'd say Balotelli would be the best shout in terms of fairly big names. Proven goalscorer, still fairly young. Yeah there's the volatile personality but I'd back Wenger to successfully manage him as well as anyone.

I rate Nastasic but £16m seems like a lot IMO. Guess it's how prices are but would he move across the Prem to remain 3rd choice?

Also, I don't think Mertesacker will be past it for a long while. The problem with older CBs is they lose pace, but he hasn't got any pace to lose and his positioning and timing should continue to improve for a few years yet. I reckon he's got top performances in him for 5-6 years.

Ah yeah I was just thinking about Podolski as a lone striker because that's all Arsenal have done for a while, but yeah Wenger's suggested he wants to use 4-4-2 more this season.

Yep I think Balotelli would be a good signing, and there have been rumours that he's available for £14m, but Wenger has specifically said they're not in for him, although that could easily be a smokescreen. I remember two years ago when he was asked in a press conference if he was signing Cazorla, he said he'd never heard of him, then a week later he signed

Well from what I've read it isn't Nastasic that's wanting to move; it's City wanting to get rid, so he may be happy with being 3rd choice.

Yeah I was gonna mention that about Mertesacker in fairness. Although if Nastasic improves at a decent rate he could replace one of them anyway, and he could easily get a chance to stake his claim if Kosc/Mert get injured or have a dip in form, as happened with Vermaelen. But obviously we can't know what his thinking is with regard to being a first teamer or not.